Soldier suicides on the rise ...

[kaizasosei]

you may even be right. but first and formost, one should have the ability to positively support people who are only doing their job.

otherwise, you're only adding to the insecurity that is already there.
because however bogus you may think one side is politically,, it remains fact that any support whatsoever can go a long way in extreme situations. also any negativity whatsoever can also do lots of damage. many of these people may not have had an idea how big a mess they got themselves into, but there must be ways of strengthening the morale so that these appalling rates sink some.

 

[shesulsa]

IF you read the article you'll see it is pointed toward the LACK OF CARE given by the military to this issue.

If you want to argue the actions of government and their responsibility to creating the wars which are the cause of need for soldiers whose service will bring about PTSD, that is another thread.

If you want to make comments based on the LACK OF CARE for SOLDIERS IN NEED, feel free. But don't hijack another thread please.

Thanks again.

Here's an article directly from the military itself - dated August 2007.

The threat doesn’t stem from any foreign armed forces or military power, and casualties resulting from this threat are often the saddest and most heartbreaking of deaths for the family and friends of these Soldiers.


The threat is suicide, which ranked as the No. 3 cause of death for Army National Guard Soldiers through Aug. 13, according to the Army National Guard’s Suicide Prevention Program. There have been 42 cases of suicide in the Army National Guard this fiscal year, and it narrowly trails only combat (47) and accidents (45) in terms of Soldier deaths.

 

[shesulsa]

you may even be right. but first and formost, one should have the ability to positively support people who are only doing their job.

otherwise, you're only adding to the insecurity that is already there.
because however bogus you may think one side is politically,, it remains fact that any support whatsoever can go a long way in extreme situations. also any negativity whatsoever can also do lots of damage. many of these people may not have had an idea how big a mess they got themselves into, but there must be ways of strengthening the morale so that these appalling rates sink some.

You have a point about negativity. So I'll ask you - how do we as citizens perform our civic duty and call the government on the carpet appropriately without the spin of negativity? Because frankly, I can't see how anyone can put their discontent at the actions of a few and not have it spun in a negative fashion - there are people who have the very job of doing this. For example, I could ask Dubya, "Could you please pass the donuts, Mr. President?" If known I was a registered Democrat who has spoken out and demonstrated against certain republican policies, I'm sure some pundit would point to me and claim I was bossing the man around and giving him my coffee order to boot. Not only that but I'm sure the fact that I've demonstrated against certain Democratic policies would not only never be brought up but would be buried. I'm sure friends of mine would be bribed by the media to tell "their story" and I'd be viewed as an over-demanding, self-important, insensitive slut who slammed the president and, by proxy, all troops in service. Let me be clear that if the president were a democrat, I'm sure it would be no different ... they'd just smile at me while stabbing me in the back and I might get hit on by Bill Clinton.

So ... what do you recommend?

Shall we all be silent and pray that the care of our soldiers gets better?

 

[Ninjamom]

The place for showing care for servicemembers: THE BUDGET

More funds for treatment, research, outpatient care, and (the big one) continuing/follow-up care would say, "I support you" in a positive, meaningful way. This being an election year, any letter you write to a congressman will 'count double' as far as its effectiveness. Bring up the issue at grassroots debates. Write to candidates and ask their position and what they will do about it. And watch for the political rhetoric that conveniently ignores the question, such as either "Win the war," OR "Get out of the war".

 

[tellner]

mward has a point. The criminally negligent standard of care given to affected troops and the official denials of their problems do not exist in a vacuum. The circumstances of the war - no clear objective, no end in sight, a constantly changing mission and so on - are crucial parts of their situation. It is impossible to separate the parts when you are talking about the mental health of battle-weary warriors.

 

[shesulsa]

mward has a point. The criminally negligent standard of care given to affected troops and the official denials of their problems do not exist in a vacuum. The circumstances of the war - no clear objective, no end in sight, a constantly changing mission and so on - are crucial parts of their situation. It is impossible to separate the parts when you are talking about the mental health of battle-weary warriors.

Really?

We can't talk about veterans affairs and the lack of care without disgussing the Iraq war policies?

 

[shesulsa]

You see, there seems to be a consistent pattern by military health care to diminish the needs of and neglect the care of battle-weary soldiers as evidenced by the PTSD associated with:

WW2 vets
Korea Conflict vets
Vietnam vets
Iraq 1 vets

now the Iraq 2 vets ... and various and sundry other skirmishes in between.

Those are separate instances with certain commonalities - all involved battle fatigue. This is handled by military health care ... one of the constants in the analogy.

So ... were all these policies bogus? Should we discuss them all? Or shall we focus on getting our soldiers the care we need? Perhaps the problem lies in poorly trained military medical practitioners and bad budgeting?

 

[kaizasosei]

i think you can still support soldiers even if you don't support the government.
it's not about having the authority or rudeness of telling someone to go back to their mother. it's about having the authority to act as their mother. isn't it ironic- fighting for your country and then getting hated for it.
- basically, there is evil and human error everywhere on all sides, but if someone kills themselves because they feel like their cause is worthless, then that for me is a real shame. - as advanced and civilized as the world is, if it wasn't for armies and the individuals that support them, things would be quite different. not saying it's good, not saying it's bad. it's just the way it is.



j

 

[Tez3]

The rate of suicide in the British Armed Services has been of considerable concern for a long time now. There are various reasons some of which do not make palatable reading.
In training establishments, bullying by instructors and other recruits has the effect of making other recruits kill themselves. One case I dealt with the recruit was on the ranges and told his instructor he wanted to kill himself, they took him off the ranges and put him on guard saying he was stuck in the army for ever and they would make sure his life was hell. He took his weapon when it was his turn to patrol, went rounf the back of the guardroom and blew his brains out, he was in fact being allowed to leave the army in two days.
Poor recruiting is also to blame, the army is so short of recruits the recruting offices are literally taking everyone that applies without considering the suitability of the candidate.
Too many tours on active duty. The British Army is stretched beyond belief. They are doing six months tours in Iraq, back for three months then six months in Afghanistan then they could be away to the Falklands for six months, not active service but time away from families.then back to Afghanistan etc. There is no relief in sight. Marriages are breaking up, men are losing contact with their children.That alone can make many suicidal.
PTSD, we have soldiers and former soldiers suffering from this from Northern Ireland in the severnties, the Falklands War and the Balkans as well as the two Iraq wars and Afghanistan.
Soldiers are not just asked to fight for their country not even just asked to die for it, they are asked to kill for it. Fine words saying that's what they are trained for but it's not that simple, I work with a man who was in Aden, he shot dead a young boy of about 8 or 9 deliberately.... because the boy had been given a hand granade with the pin and and told to walk towards the British soldiers, what would you have done in the few seconds you had to think? The soldiers don't just kill the 'baddie' soldiers they also kill civilians, not willingly or sometimes even knowingly but it's a hard thing to live with. Soldiers in the Balkans had to dig up the mass graves and dig out the bodys of women and children, one soldier I know came across a baby nailed to a tree. Hands up who's seen the photos from the Basra road in the first Gulf was, nice work eh? Trying living with doing that.
For me the political point is that we are over stretching our troops, asking too much of them and not caring for them when they get back. I don't know if this is the same for your troops.

From Tellner " mward has a point. The criminally negligent standard of care given to affected troops and the official denials of their problems do not exist in a vacuum. The circumstances of the war - no clear objective, no end in sight, a constantly changing mission and so on - are crucial parts of their situation. It is impossible to separate the parts when you are talking about the mental health of battle-weary warriors. "

This is certainly the case with our troops. At our next MMA show we are raising money for 3 Para Regt so they can buy their lads who lost legs decent replacements, we are proud to help but dear god these lads aren't charity cases the govenment who sent them out there should be providing for them. Elsewhere people are fund raising for a swimming pool for amputees to use as the local one is an hour away from the hospital and besides people using that one complained at the amputee soldiers using it. The government closed down the only military psychiatric hospital in the country and it certainly refuses to believe that Gulf War Syndrome could even possiblty exist.
Out in Afghanistan we've had stories coming back of soldiers without enough to eat and as with Iraq many stories of there not being enough equipment such as body armour. While the soldiers are away serving on the frontlines their families are living in substandard accomodation as is much of the single soldiers accomodation though there is some new building being down in that respect.
I think the soldiers are doing their best and getting little in return, many have doubts about their part in these wars but being loyal soldiers they put up and shut up but now too much is being asked of them.

 

[Doc_Jude]

The rate of suicide in the British Armed Services has been of considerable concern for a long time now. There are various reasons some of which do not make palatable reading.
In training establishments, bullying by instructors and other recruits has the effect of making other recruits kill themselves. One case I dealt with the recruit was on the ranges and told his instructor he wanted to kill himself, they took him off the ranges and put him on guard saying he was stuck in the army for ever and they would make sure his life was hell. He took his weapon when it was his turn to patrol, went rounf the back of the guardroom and blew his brains out, he was in fact being allowed to leave the army in two days.
Poor recruiting is also to blame, the army is so short of recruits the recruting offices are literally taking everyone that applies without considering the suitability of the candidate.
Too many tours on active duty. The British Army is stretched beyond belief. They are doing six months tours in Iraq, back for three months then six months in Afghanistan then they could be away to the Falklands for six months, not active service but time away from families.then back to Afghanistan etc. There is no relief in sight. Marriages are breaking up, men are losing contact with their children.That alone can make many suicidal.
PTSD, we have soldiers and former soldiers suffering from this from Northern Ireland in the severnties, the Falklands War and the Balkans as well as the two Iraq wars and Afghanistan.
Soldiers are not just asked to fight for their country not even just asked to die for it, they are asked to kill for it. Fine words saying that's what they are trained for but it's not that simple, I work with a man who was in Aden, he shot dead a young boy of about 8 or 9 deliberately.... because the boy had been given a hand granade with the pin and and told to walk towards the British soldiers, what would you have done in the few seconds you had to think? The soldiers don't just kill the 'baddie' soldiers they also kill civilians, not willingly or sometimes even knowingly but it's a hard thing to live with. Soldiers in the Balkans had to dig up the mass graves and dig out the bodys of women and children, one soldier I know came across a baby nailed to a tree. Hands up who's seen the photos from the Basra road in the first Gulf was, nice work eh? Trying living with doing that.
For me the political point is that we are over stretching our troops, asking too much of them and not caring for them when they get back. I don't know if this is the same for your troops.

From Tellner " mward has a point. The criminally negligent standard of care given to affected troops and the official denials of their problems do not exist in a vacuum. The circumstances of the war - no clear objective, no end in sight, a constantly changing mission and so on - are crucial parts of their situation. It is impossible to separate the parts when you are talking about the mental health of battle-weary warriors. "

This is certainly the case with our troops. At our next MMA show we are raising money for 3 Para Regt so they can buy their lads who lost legs decent replacements, we are proud to help but dear god these lads aren't charity cases the govenment who sent them out there should be providing for them. Elsewhere people are fund raising for a swimming pool for amputees to use as the local one is an hour away from the hospital and besides people using that one complained at the amputee soldiers using it. The government closed down the only military psychiatric hospital in the country and it certainly refuses to believe that Gulf War Syndrome could even possiblty exist.
Out in Afghanistan we've had stories coming back of soldiers without enough to eat and as with Iraq many stories of there not being enough equipment such as body armour. While the soldiers are away serving on the frontlines their families are living in substandard accomodation as is much of the single soldiers accomodation though there is some new building being down in that respect.
I think the soldiers are doing their best and getting little in return, many have doubts about their part in these wars but being loyal soldiers they put up and shut up but now too much is being asked of them.

You said almost everything that I was going to say, being a former U.S. Navy (1st Marine Div) Hospital Corpsman. Right on point.

Another point: one major change that would help out tremendously is that U.S. military should shift all mental health counseling back to the States, in stead of requiring soldiers to stay in country to get counseling before they rotate back home or they EOS. Most of our boys want to come home so badly they skip any counseling offered and then are reliant on the substandard VA care once they're home. That way, at least they'd have a chance for some beneficial treatment.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oldiers-dying-words-to-his-mother-413277.html

 

[kaizasosei]

you gotta have faith. a whole lot of precious faith...

 

[tellner]

Yes shesulsa, really. The problems the veterans are facing are not one-dimensional. The conditions they are forced to operate in play an important role in their mental health. That has to be taken into account when we discuss the effect that their subsequent care has on them.

The conditions of WWI and WWII, Korea, Vietnam and the Gulf War, the servicepeoples' perceptions of their situation, the amount of rest and recuperation they got, the politics of the wars that determined how they were treated by the Pentagon and all the rest are related. If you want a real understanding of the problem you would be a fool to just pick one piece and exclude the rest. Even things like the decision to use troop ships versus airplanes to transport soldiers and marines has a profound effect. I refer you to Lt. Col. Grossman's brilliant work On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill.

 

[Tez3]

Troops now can face more combat in a couple of years than soldiers did in the entire Second World War. Interesting Tellner mentions the troop ships, in the last war troops had ar least a couiple of weeks at sea before reaching home to help put their experiences into perspective, in the Vietnam war soldiers found themselves fighting in the jungle one day and back home the next with no time to adjust.
I don't think anyone without experience in a warzone has actually any idea what it's like and there is a tendancy to imagine things are like John Wayne films where soldiers die 'cleanly' from one bullet, the soldiers all know who the enemy is and it's a fight between warriors for right and wrong. The truth is the opposite, your mates die horrendously and you ask yourself why and also why not you, survivor guilt is very powerful. Of course they don't always die they are terribly wounded. The 'battles' aren't glorious Agincourt events they are messy, confusing and people other than combatants get killed, mistakes are made, there's been a lot of soldiers killed in firendly fire incidents, last August a USAF pilot dropped a bomb on British troops killing several soldiers, I'm not saying this to blame the pilot but for you to imagine how awful everyone involved must feel,the pilot is another casualty of war. British troops killed Danish soldiers in another friendly fire incident. Sadly these are becoming more common in Iraq and Afghanistan, governments however seem intent on covering these up, regrets were issued but no reasons.
The bottom line I think is where responsibilty lies and thats with our governments, deep searching questions should be asked about whether our troops should be where they are and exactly what we are asking of them. All these people joined up to serve their countries in return their countries have to look after them and their families who also in their way serve their countries. As the British Legion says it's time to HONOUR THE COVENANT.

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/index.cfm?asset_id=516704

 

[shesulsa]

What I wanted to do with this thread was begin to explore the problems with Military health care using the most recent topical news to scratch the surface. Before we go discussing war policy ... again ... here's an article about a soldier whose malignant melanoma was misdiagnosed.

The "fight," as they call it is over what's known as the Feres Doctrine, a 1950 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that bars active-duty military personnel and their families from suing the federal government for injuries incidental to their service. In other words, unlike every other U.S. citizen, people in the military cannot sue the federal government for medical malpractice.

Now ... I'm not advocating the lawsuit bandwagon, though I think a serious examination of military medical practice is LONG overdue. It's not just about poor psychiatric care (clearly forseeable in times of war), it's about care generally and care for our veterans - all who serve and who have served.

 

[Tez3]

What I wanted to do with this thread was begin to explore the problems with Military health care using the most recent topical news to scratch the surface. Before we go discussing war policy ... again ... here's an article about a soldier whose malignant melanoma was misdiagnosed.



Now ... I'm not advocating the lawsuit bandwagon, though I think a serious examination of military medical practice is LONG overdue. It's not just about poor psychiatric care (clearly forseeable in times of war), it's about care generally and care for our veterans - all who serve and who have served.

I can't comment on this post as Crown immunity was removed some time ago and British service people are allowed to sue the MOD for anything now. I will say though it seems terribly unfair that American service personnel can't.

 

[Ninjamom]

I think it has a lot to do with the long history of military/civilian perceptions, roles, and responsibilities.

When I was in the service, I was considered US Government Property:
* Military medical care was free and mandatory - I HAD to receive flu shots yearly, as well as certain vaccines for international travel.
* I was not allowed to take over-the-counter medication without the approval of a military doctor.
* Service members could be court-martialed (for destruction of government property) if their negligence resulted in incapacitation for duty (such as receiving a severe sunburn while stationed on remote duty in the Kwajalein atoll, near the equator - in fact this was a routine warning given to all personal traveling to Kwajalein)

I think you can see where this is leading - the view is still entrenched that good discipline and adherence to chain-of-command requires that the military can dictate the medical treatment that is in the best interest of the service. This came into great play in Iraq, where the cocktail of innoculations, pretreatments in case of exposure to nerve agents, trace amounts of those nerve agents, and pesticides became the leading suspect for 'Guld War Syndrome'. And no, if you were going in-theatre, you could NOT decline any of the innoculations or pretreatments.

 

[Tez3]

I'd agree with Ninjamom and it ties in with what I was discussing on another thread where was describing a certain type of army officer we had to deal with. I'm not sure if you have the same problem though the same sense of belonging to the army occurs. The officers I was talking about are ones whose families have always been in the army usually the same regiments which their ancestors founded centuries ago and this is the problem. then the soldiers were thought to be the scum of the earth and treated as such by the officers who commanded them having paid for their commisions. To a certain extent the British army is still back in those days, there is a saying "Officers and their ladies, SNCO and their wives and soldiers and their women". As Ninjamom says, medical appointments are parades where you will be charged if you don't attend, you will have your wisdom teeth taken out whether you like it or not, you will have the shots they tell you to and yes you will be charged for getting bad sunburn or even if you have a vasetomy privately! In other words you are their property and are not thought of highly at that.
I can't speak for the Royal Navy as I've had little to do with them I was in the RAF which is totally different, you are thought to be intelligent enough to be able to sort your medical appointments out yourself etc. The same follows in your job, they didn't invest money in your training etc for you to not be able to work unsupervised. Soldiers however are not allowed to do anything that hasn't been ordered by a 'superior' oh how I hate that word! To get an appointment for mental health issues you'd have to first ask prmission to 'go sick' probably prompting your NCO to ask what's wrong with you, then having to see an army doctor who may or may not refer you to a CPN (Community Psychiatric Nurse) who will be some distance away ( there's not many of them) so permission to go will have to obtained if the doctor agrees you can be referred. Soon everyone knows you are 'loopy' and the first thing people think is that you're faking to get out of the army. Most obviously don't bother trying to get help, things get worse and there a potential suicide or perhaps a murder waiting to happen. I have friends who are military CPNs, they get people referred to them such as officers who've stolen the mess funds and thier fellow officers arrange for them to appear to have PTSD etc to get off with it, the same 'service' isn't offered to the ordinary soldiers! They do however have to deal with a great many unsuccessful suicide attemptees. Many are trying to get out of the army and are felt to be 'faking' by the army but their reasons are genuine if not acceptable by the MOD. Others really do want to kill themselves and several despite help do go on and kill themselves.

 

[michaeledward]

What I wanted to do with this thread was begin to explore the problems with Military health care using the most recent topical news to scratch the surface. Before we go discussing war policy ... again ... here's an article about a soldier whose malignant melanoma was misdiagnosed.

Now ... I'm not advocating the lawsuit bandwagon, though I think a serious examination of military medical practice is LONG overdue. It's not just about poor psychiatric care (clearly forseeable in times of war), it's about care generally and care for our veterans - all who serve and who have served.

The United States Military provides some of the best health care in the world; when the soldiers are permitted to receive it. There has been a strong push among the bureaucracy to get soldiers discharged and off the military books before the problems manifest, are recognized and diagnosed. Legitimate claims are being denied, as with all insurance companies, under the auspices of 'pre-existing condition'. (The Veterans Administration has a budget of $81,000,000,000.00)

The Report linked to Suicides in the military. But, the numbers in that report, as I attempted point out before being called a socialist and thread hi-jacker, are woefully under-reported. The military, under the direction of Donald Rumsfeld, and William Gates, is turning a blind eye to a significant portion of soldiers and veterans.

A year from now, you are going to see the numbers of soldier suicides restated. That restatement will be a significantly higher number.

Incidentally, the Veterans Adminstration web page has on the front page, a suicide prevention hotline - 800-273-8255.

 

[Ninjamom]

Tez brought up two great points - the availability (or lack thereof) of mental health care services for military members, and the stigma associated with seeking/using those services.

Does anyone have any stats on the number of military mental health care professionals in service, as opposed to other types of Drs., or as a percentage of the total?