SKH/Quest/Toshindo/Shadows of Iga: Eclectic art forms?

[sojobow]

From what I can see, modern Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu and other 21st Century martial arts are actually heterogeneous art forms in that they are developed by:

1 : selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles
2 : composed of elements drawn from various sources; (dictionary)

Without getting into the "my style is better than yours or your style - and you - aren't legit because you "stole" all of your techniques," are there any drawbacks you can see in these modern eclectic martial arts?

 

[Cryozombie]

From what I can see, modern Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu and other 21st Century martial arts are actually heterogeneous art forms in that they are developed by:

1 : selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles
2 : composed of elements drawn from various sources; (dictionary)

Without getting into the "my style is better than yours or your style - and you - aren't legit because you "stole" all of your techniques," are there any drawbacks you can see in these modern eclectic martial arts?

I would worry about the reliablity of an art like that...

If I took an Engine from a Yamaha, a Transmission from a Kawasaki, a frame from a Harley, Tires from a Ural, and a Sidecar from a Dnepr, I MIGHT have a working bike... but how well would it work I wonder?

:idunno:

 

[Satt]

I would worry about the reliablity of an art like that...

If I took an Engine from a Yamaha, a Transmission from a Kawasaki, a frame from a Harley, Tires from a Ural, and a Sidecar from a Dnepr, I MIGHT have a working bike... but how well would it work I wonder?

:idunno:

I guess it depends how good a mechanic/reworker you are. I think we should just all use claws like the ones you have instead of any martial art though. He he.

 

[Cryozombie]

I guess it depends how good a mechanic/reworker you are. I think we should just all use claws like the ones you have instead of any martial art though. He he.

Ok you lost me... the only claws I have are the Tekagi that they teach in classic Togakure-ryu...

Oh wait... you mean the ones I posted the pic of? Yeah... I want a pair of those...

My point was, you could get a working bike... but It probably wouldnt be as good as a bike that had parts that were meant to be compatible...

I can rework a square peg to fit a round hole, but why?

 

[Commuter]

I don't suspect Mr. Hayes to be some kind of ametuer who just one day "came up with his own art" sort of deal. To-Shin Do is rooted in Budo Taijutsu afterall. Besides, if you don't like To-Shin Do you can always just study the Budo Taijutsu that's part of his Shadows of Iga program.

 

[Don Roley]

I think Sojobow missed the mark entirely. Possibly due to his lack of experience with authentic ninjutsu and Toshindo.

He starts a thread in the section devoted to Stephen Hayes' art, with a title about his orginization, but talks about how modern ninjutsu is a collection of various art's techniques.

So, anyone want to show me what other art Hayes added to his Toshindo?

As far as I can tell, Hayes took out the stuff from Bujinkan where you hit the guy all the way to the ground and beyond due to legal concens. He also has his people stand higher all the time and deal with different attacking modes than common Bujinkan training. None of this is a change in techniques or borrowing from other styles. Hayes has also added in philosophy and such from his Tendai training, revised the rank curriculum and added armored assailent training based on what he learned from Pyeton Quinn. Again, no adding on of other arts techniques.

Hayes in nothing like Tew- ryu, Dux-ryu or any of the hybrid arts out there that merely use the title "ninjutsu" to attract students. The way he kicks or throws people is recognizable to the people in Japan. This entire thread is based on a false premis.

 

[Satt]

Thank you Don.

 

[Cryozombie]

I don't suspect Mr. Hayes to be some kind of ametuer who just one day "came up with his own art" sort of deal. To-Shin Do is rooted in Budo Taijutsu afterall. Besides, if you don't like To-Shin Do you can always just study the Budo Taijutsu that's part of his Shadows of Iga program.

Well, I wasnt referring to hayes at all in my analagy, rather the arts that picked bits and pieces of other arts and threw them together to form a new art. IMO, that is not what hayes has done.

 

[sojobow]

As far as I can tell, Hayes took out the stuff from Bujinkan where you hit the guy all the way to the ground and beyond due to legal concens. He also has his people stand higher all the time and deal with different attacking modes than common Bujinkan training. .

This entire thread is based on a false premis.

When you interject "Hayes took out .......", that phrase (and the associated act by their founders), in itself, may indicate a degree of eclectism. One might also argue, from the strict definition of eclectic, that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is also an eclectic system due to someone's choice of merging pre-existing behaviors. Not saying good, bad or indifferent. Only asking if the definition of these heterogenious systems can fit the definition of eclectic.

It is a know fact and indisputable that the other systems you named are eclectic. Very high in utility. But thats another subject for someone else and not I.

Again, I simply ask if you (readers) see any drawbacks in those modern arts. Since all were established in the US within the past 2 or 3 decades, I use this recent establishment of their schools as defining a "modern" system. The premis works because of definition.

SKH, Quest, Toshindo, Shadows of Iga are all different systems from anything in Japan in one way or another. There may be similarities (we all punch and kick and strategize).

 

[Commuter]

Sure, To-Shin Do and Shadows of Iga are different that what is being taught in Japan, but many other Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu dojo are also teaching things different than how they are in Japan due to the loosely-defined curriculum.

 

[Don Roley]

Sojobow,
Due to your lack of experience with real ninjutsu, you simply do not understand that what Hayes does has nothing in common with what people like Tew and Dux do.

Hayes has maybe "tweaked" the way he teaches things. But that is a far cry from the Frankenstien monster that Dux teaches. The contents are largely in sync with what you see in Japan. there are alot of wayss to punch, throw and kick- but Hayes still does things like you see in Japan unlike the pseudo hapikido stuff from Tew and Dux. And Hayes himself wrote a long time ago that you needed a proven central core to an art in order to make it effective and that piecing together different things is not an effective way to comply an art. To imply that he took one thing from one art, something from another, is just plain wrong.

Obviously you have never really trained with a Toshindo group. I think the guys that do train under Hayes will be insulted in your comparison between Hayes' art and the ineffective art of a completly incomptent fraud like Frank Dux.

 

[Gary Arthur]

I actually, for once find myself agreeing (mostly) with what Don Roley has said.

From my point of view An Shu Hayes has studied the Takamatsuden arts under Hatsumi Sensei for many years, and has a unique way of teaching these arts logically and scientifically to his students.

This could be why people look at TO-SHIN DO (if they ever get past the web site and visit the Dojo) and see a system that is different to the Bujinkan.

Hatsumi Sensei has no sylabus because I think he realises that each country and region will have different needs for the art so the art will, and should be different based on that. In fact when I last spoke with An Shu Hayes he stated that Hatsumi had told him to go back to the States and make, what was called at the time Ninjutsu relevant to the country he lived in. This must have been back in the early 80s I guess.

Its ironic that when he did exactly what Hatsumi Sensei said he is beratted for not following the Bujinkan training method.

TO-SHIN DO as far as I am concerned is not an eclectic art. We do not borrow from judo, karate or any other martial art. Sure we want to know how the practitioners of these arts might attack us, and therefore a student acting as uke might have to pretend to be the boxer, judo man etc, but that does not mean those arts are part of TO-SHIN DO. TO-SHIN DO is exactly what I have been studying for the past 19 years as a member of the Bujinkan and latter the Genbukan. It is Takamatsuden arts.

The only disagreement I have with Don Roley is in his comment about the TO-SHIN DO guys not hitting the guy all the way to the ground. Sure in the states if you hit your partner too hard he just might sue you, and I think that An Shu Hayes as a professional teacher is well aware of health and safety and the welfare of his students. but if you think TO-SHIN DO guys can't knock you to the ground, well check it out for yourself. We want to knock people to the ground hense the pad work and full body armour. Something I will say that a lot of Ninjutsu groups still do not do.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hatsumi Sensei has no sylabus because I think he realises that each country and region will have different needs for the art so the art will, and should be different based on that.

Not unless you get your kihon down right.

In fact when I last spoke with An Shu Hayes he stated that Hatsumi had told him to go back to the States and make, what was called at the time Ninjutsu relevant to the country he lived in. This must have been back in the early 80s I guess.
Its ironic that when he did exactly what Hatsumi Sensei said he is beratted for not following the Bujinkan training method.

So you're saying it's impossible to fit the Takamatsuden arts into modern society if you adher more strictly than To Shin Do does to what's taught in Japan at the moment?

We want to knock people to the ground hense the pad work and full body armour. Something I will say that a lot of Ninjutsu groups still do not do.

If you get into the habit of kicking at a cup or elbowing into a helmet you may end up acting according to that in a real life situation as well. That's all I'll say about that.

 

[Don Roley]

The only disagreement I have with Don Roley is in his comment about the TO-SHIN DO guys not hitting the guy all the way to the ground.

You misunderstand. I read an article by Hayes himself saying that many of the techniques that beat a guy once he was down on the ground (like the ending of many Gyokko ryu techniques) was dangerous in a legal sense in North America. So when I talked about hitting a person all the way to the ground and beyond, I was not talking about the strength of the blows. I thought that was clear.

 

[sojobow]

Almost Forgot: well let me see now my distinguished friend Mr. Roley:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19947&page=1 (Post #1)
Gary Arthur - entire post but I thought this interesting: ".....Heh isn't there a photograph of Dr Hatsumi or one of the Shihan in the 60s or 70s wearing Kendo armour to defend against a kick?"

Nimravus (#2): ".....In a way, Hatsumi sensei has, in that ninjutsu will not be fully revealed until our taijutsu is perfected."
Also: "Soke actually showed us a new way of punching while wearing armour yesterday, I found it quite similar to a Wing Chun punch in some ways."
And: "...Nope. Budo Taijutsu has wrongly been labeled ninjutsu, but ninjutsu is not taijutsu in this sense."
And my favorite: "See above. As for ninjutsu, it is a small specialized science dealing with the usage and gathering of information, infiltration, espionage, biology, meteorology etc. and has nothing to do with taijutsu in itself. No, I'll never tire of saying this."

Kaith Rustaz #10: "...
It seems that while both arts have similarities, and contain some of the same parts, both have in fact evolved from the core-root in similar, yet different directions."

So that you don't get tired of reading, seems the point is made. These types of first-hand evidence is revealed throughout the entire Ninjutsu section so please pardon those individuals that seem to disagree with you.

Sojobow,
Due to your lack of experience with real ninjutsu, you simply do not understand that what Hayes does has nothing in common with what people like Tew and Dux do.

Never said Hayes has anything in commmon with Tew or Dux.

Hayes has maybe "tweaked" the way he teaches things. But that is a far cry from the Frankenstien monster that Dux teaches.

I agree, what Dux teaches is a monster.
Statements like: "pseudo hapikido stuff from Tew and Dux...; and, "the ineffective art of a completely incomptent fraud like Frank Dux..." will not get you invited to my Christmas Dinner Party.

But, since you've really trained with a Toshindo Group, you would know.

Obviously you have never really trained with a Toshindo group. I think the guys that do train under Hayes will be insulted in your comparison between Hayes' art and the ineffective art of a completly incomptent fraud like Frank Dux.

Does this mean that I can't come to the Don Roley Gala. Relax buddy. Vains are popping out of you neck. Take a deep breath. We'll all agree with whatever you say.

Now, back to the matter at hand. Are eclectic Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu styles feasible?

 

[Don Roley]

Sojobow,
You do not seem to be able to understand that this entire thread is based on a false premis. Let us take a look at the terms you quoted from the dictionary.

1 : selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles
2 : composed of elements drawn from various sources; (dictionary)

All of the Toshindo practicioners agree that the above definition is not appropriate to what hayes has done.

What you describe is taking some kicks from one art, some throws from another, etc and labeling it modern ninjutsu. This has been tried by many of the so-called "modern ninjutsu" practicioners. But the results tend to be like the ones refered to in this article on martial arts pirates. Especially this part,

The short version of this problem is that in the competitive world of martial arts business, unscrupulous instructors often steal concepts, moves, ideas, teaching systems, etc., etc. from other systems/instructors. Then they* present these ideas as their own to unsuspecting students. While that is ethically wrong, the real problem is this: They do this without fully understanding the significance of what it is that they are pillaging.*

Much less, how it really works. What else is involved and how it can all blow up in your face without these other aspects. Therefore they are charging you full price for half information. This motivations for this behavior are many, and they are quite simply beyond the scope of this page. However, the results are pretty identifiable.

What is being taught is flawed. Parts are missing. These parts are critical for the "move" to work in real life.

By comparrison, arts that have been passed down do change but they are not, "composed of elements drawn from various sources" nor do they select, "what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles" as your dictionary defines eclectic. If they are given a new tool for use in training (like the kendo guard that Hatsumi used to practice kicks on) or modify what they do for new technology (like the pistol fighting book that Hatsumi has) then they still keep the central principle instead of bringing a wide variety of clashing philosophies learned shallowly that is a trademark of the many frauds passing themselves off as "modern ninjutsu" practicioners.

You might want to start a thread in the general martial arts section about the benifits and drawbacks of ecletic training. But posting it in the ninjutsu section with a mention of Hayes in the title is out of place. True ninjutsu and Hayes are not like that.

 

[Kreth]

Gary Arthur - entire post but I thought this interesting: ".....Heh isn't there a photograph of Dr Hatsumi or one of the Shihan in the 60s or 70s wearing Kendo armour to defend against a kick?"

NimravusAlso: "Soke actually showed us a new way of punching while wearing armour yesterday, I found it quite similar to a Wing Chun punch in some ways."

Kaith Rustaz #10: "...
It seems that while both arts have similarities, and contain some of the same parts, both have in fact evolved from the core-root in similar, yet different directions."

So that you don't get tired of reading, seems the point is made. These types of first-hand evidence is revealed throughout the entire Ninjutsu section so please pardon those individuals that seem to disagree with you.

Adapting a new training method (as Gary Arthur pointed out), or learning a "new" punching technique (as Nimravus says), does not support your point. The one is simply taking advantage of newer equipment, whereas the other may just have been something that Nimravus personally has not seen before. Neither is the same thing as the cobbled-together systems of Tew, Dux, and most of the other "ninjitsu" practitioners, which feature techniques from arts with widely disparate philosophies and applications.
As for Kaith Rustaz, he's employing a communication technique. He's summarizing and paraphrasing what he's read and restating it in his own terms. Maybe you should give it a try, as you seem to only pick and choose what you want from the other posts in this thread (and any thread you've been involved in, for that matter).

Jeff

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The punch I mentioned earlier was one where the finger side is facing upwards like in an uppercut, and the elbow is tucked in closer to the mid portion of the chest, so that you have the power of your spine behind your punch (not to mention the weight of the armor).

 

[Gary Arthur]

Don Roley

Sorry Don I did misunderstand what you meant, so it looks like for once I completley agree with you.

 

[sojobow]

Sojobow,
You do not seem to be able to understand that this entire thread is based on a false premis. Let us take a look at the terms you quoted from the dictionary.
All of the Toshindo practicioners agree that the above definition is not appropriate to what hayes has done.

"All" is a very big word my distinguished friends. How would you explain this post by Commuter. Post #10 in this thread? Speaking for "everyone" is a little dangerous.

"Sure, To-Shin Do and Shadows of Iga are different that what is being taught in Japan, but many other Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu dojo are also teaching things different than how they are in Japan due to the loosely-defined curriculum."

I do believe Commuter is a To Shin Do practitionor.

Lets not beat this horse too long. All was hoped for in this thread was a discourse on the evolutionary implications from yesturday's styles to today's styles. The same topic would be appropriate to any and all (there's that word again) of the martial arts systems sectioned off in this Forum (and yes, a similar thread was started - as you well already know - in the General section.

We began with a two-sentence definition of the word "eclectic."

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojobow
1 : selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles
2 : composed of elements drawn from various sources; (dictionary)

If you, and or everyone else here, believes that your, or their style - and more specific, the styles listed in the Topic post - do not contain evolutionary elements of (a) selecting what appears to be best...., and (b) composed of elements drawn from various sources, bless you. One good thing however, is that the members here that I think actually KNOW, haven't replied which usually implies that they agree but wish not to hurt their constituant's egos (the usual MO).

It was a simple inquiry. Guess a more appropriate question would have been, or could be: If your Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu style/system practiced isn't eclectic in its origins, how did it begin and is it the same as it was when originated?