Sinking you Chi in WC?

[Yoshiyahu]

I was curious. I have read things concerning Sinking the Chi in both WC and Tai Chi. This Question is open to both WC fighters and Tai Chi fighters. My Sifu and others of my lineage always speak about Sinking the Chi, Focusing on the Dan Tien, Finding you center of Gravity. I also know alot of them have backgrounds in Internal Arts.


I was woundering if you guys who practice WC also practice sinking the chi?

Also what does it mean to you, to sink the Chi?

Same question applies to Tai Chi person what does Sinking the Chi really mean?


Its basic question I know but since many WC Lineages differ so much in terminology I was woundering how we differ in this fashion. Later I will share more of what my Sifu teaches about Sinking the Chi. But I am curious to know how you guys compare or differ to what I been taught about this subject?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Here are some Theories from

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Yee_Jee_Kim_Yeung_Ma

Below are some phrases dealing with Chi in Dan Tien. What do you think about it...any comments? Real the bold words!

questions?

1.How do you fill the Dan Tien with Chi?

2.How do you control the Dan Tien?

3.How do you release Chi from the Dan Tien?


Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma
- Pull in the chest, push out the upper back, and bring in the tail bone.
- Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.
- Point the knees and toes inward.
- Form a pyramid with the center of gravity in the center.
- Fists are placed by the side of the ribs but not touching the body.
- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist.
- Hold the head and neck straight and keep the spirit alert.
- Eyes are level, looking straight ahead, and watching all directions.
- The mind is free of distractions and the mood is bright.
- There is no fear when facing the opponent.
- Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is the main stance.
- Develop a good foundation for advanced techniques.

Siu Lim Tau
- Siu Lim Tau comes first; Do not force progress in training.
- A weak body must start with strength improvement.
- Do not keep any bad habit.
- Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.
- To maintain good balance of strength, grip the ground with the toes.
- To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
- Sink the elbow and drop the shoulders; Guarding the centerline to protect both flanks.
- There are one hundred and eight moves, all practical and real; Thousands of variations can be used, aiming for practical use and not beauty.
- Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
- Taun Sau, Bong Sau, Fok Sau, Wu Sau, and Huen Sau; their wonder grows with practice.
- Each movement must be clear and crisp. Timing must be observed.
- Practice once a day, more will cause no harm.

 

[Xue Sheng]

questions?

1.How do you fill the Dan Tien with Chi?

2.How do you control the Dan Tien?

3.How do you release Chi from the Dan Tien?

The Root of Chinese Qigong

Qigong Meditation- Small Circulation

Eight Simple Qigong Exercises for Health

Qigong

Dantian

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Heres a question which dan tian are you talking about?

You got Lower,middle,upper.

Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

When the lower Dan tian(Qi hai CV6) is full then the Qi will go flow into the meridians and Extraordinary vessels thus giving strength.

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

Keep the mind at Dan tian to build up the Qi. Also by using the motion of the waist the Qi travels smoothly thru the arms and legs.

To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

Same answer above. When the body moves correctly then Fa jin will manifest IMO.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent response...I don't know how many WC guys would responed to this...it seems many WC people don't teach about the three dan tiens...Oh i was speaking of the lower Dan Tien...


Any who...I cant remember if it Xue Shen who studied a little WC or not...Did the WC sifu talk about the Dan Tien at all?

Heres a question which dan tian are you talking about?

You got Lower,middle,upper.





When the lower Dan tian(Qi hai CV6) is full then the Qi will go flow into the meridians and Extraordinary vessels thus giving strength.


Keep the mind at Dan tian to build up the Qi. Also by using the motion of the waist the Qi travels smoothly thru the arms and legs.


Same answer above. When the body moves correctly then Fa jin will manifest IMO.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Any who...I cant remember if it Xue Shen who studied a little WC or not...Did the WC sifu talk about the Dan Tien at all?

Yes I did but I never got past Siu Lim Tau and I do not remember if he did or not

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Did you learn the entire SLT?

What version was it Yip Man's?

Also do you still remember it?

Yes I did but I never got past Siu Lim Tau and I do not remember if he did or not

 

[Xue Sheng]

Did you learn the entire SLT?

Yes

What version was it Yip Man's?

Yes, but to be more precise Ip Ching

Also do you still remember it?

No

 

[mook jong man]

We were taught to try and relax every muscle in the body as we sink down into our stance .
We straighten the spine as though an imaginary string is pulling your head up .

When we feel that every muscle is suitably relaxed we then do what is called Tei Gong which is a slight internal contraction of the anal sphincter muscle. This is thought to lock the upper and lower half of the body together as one unit .

It also helps to concentrate the mind and cause the spine to be filled with the spirit of Nim Lik which can be sent to any limb to generate power with your techniques .

It is an internal energy , but Sigung Tsui doesn't call it Chi he calls it Nim Lik which roughly translates to thought force . Nim Lik is cultivated by practicing the Sil Lim Tau correctly by using the mind to drive out your techniques , not by using muscular force , any tension except for the internal contraction is a hinderance to the proper usage and cultivation of Nim Lik power .

 

[skinters]

to me all this dan tian,chi etc is just another name for proper relaxation and body mechanics .

a good book worth reading is the inteligent warrior by steve jones,he talks a lot about the use of centre,and chi.

one of the things i picked up on is where to you keep the mind focus etc,some believe to keep the lower part of the abdomen just below the navel .this is fair enough and not a bad idea,but if you try to keep the mind inprisoned in the lower region of the abdomen,the idea of keeping it there will prevent the mind from operating anywhere else,and will result in the opposite to what is originaly intended.

when you put your mind and focus in a particular area say the arm the arm then becomes imprisoned and the rest of the body feels inconvenienced.the thing is to let the mind completly fill up the whole body,let it flow through your entire being.the localization of the mind on one particular area means it is frozen.

i could go on,but to me your body is one unit each part relying on the other to complete an action with good balance and form,martial art or otherwise.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

to me all this dan tian,chi etc is just another name for proper relaxation and body mechanics .

The lower Dan tien(Qi hai CV6) I personally can not find a Western medicine explanation for it.

However the Middle Dan tien(Jiu wei CV15) is considered to be the Solar Plexus area. The upper Dan tien is considered to be where the Pineal and Pituitary glands are located.

Qi is considered energy and depending on the type it is the Mitochondria and so on.

 

[skinters]

The lower Dan tien(Qi hai CV6) I personally can not find a Western medicine explanation for it.

However the Middle Dan tien(Jiu wei CV15) is considered to be the Solar Plexus area. The upper Dan tien is considered to be where the Pineal and Pituitary glands are located.

Qi is considered energy and depending on the type it is the Mitochondria and so on.

sorry,you flogging a dead horse.

the fact you cannot find anything a western explanation for dan tien etc should tell you something,and if you read my post thats as far as my logic can take it.if your chinese etc and use that terminolgy as everyday,fare enough,but id much rather use western terms,such as focus, good body mechanics etc as just doing them is hard enough with out any other terms which with all respect completly go over my head.

after reading that i suspect you may feel slightly annoyed or maybe challenged in some way about what you obviously believe,but i hope you understand im not in anyway trying to start a discussion on what you beleive and what i do,as i have seen and been invloved in to many of those in forums like these,and is pointless.

ever heard of gordon ramsey?,i remeber he was teaching this guy how to cook,who had a few lessons.gordon said ok what do you know? the guy said oh i can chop veg Julienning, a technique of shredding vegetables or other food into long, thin strips.gordon swore at him called him a pompous so and so and told him to go wash some dishes .if you take that story and swap julienning with dan tein etc,you might get what i trying to say.

 

[Xue Sheng]

sorry,you flogging a dead horse.

the fact you cannot find anything a western explanation for dan tien etc should tell you something,and if you read my post thats as far as my logic can take it.if your chinese etc and use that terminolgy as everyday,fare enough,but id much rather use western terms,such as focus, good body mechanics etc as just doing them is hard enough with out any other terms which with all respect completly go over my head.

after reading that i suspect you may feel slightly annoyed or maybe challenged in some way about what you obviously believe,but i hope you understand im not in anyway trying to start a discussion on what you beleive and what i do,as i have seen and been invloved in to many of those in forums like these,and is pointless.

ever heard of gordon ramsey?,i remeber he was teaching this guy how to cook,who had a few lessons.gordon said ok what do you know? the guy said oh i can chop veg Julienning, a technique of shredding vegetables or other food into long, thin strips.gordon swore at him called him a pompous so and so and told him to go wash some dishes .if you take that story and swap julienning with dan tein etc,you might get what i trying to say.

Just a note here

Wing Chun is a CMA meaning Chinese Martial Art

Dantien is used in Chinese Martial Arts, Chinese Culture and Chinese Medicine and the western view of things is not the be all end all of things. If you whish to discuss things like Qi using western thinking and exclude any discussion of the dantien then you are already way off base since there is no such thing as Qi in western thinking.

Just wanted to mention that.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

What I mean is I can not find a Western location for the lower Dan tien as I find with the Middle Dan tien and Upper Dan tien. But if you want to get technical on the Lower Dan tien location Qi hai(Cv6) is not the real lower dan tien. The real lower Dan tien is located in Western terms the intestines. The Lower false Dan tien is located on the Conception vessel and the Real lower Dan tien is located "inner more" hence why I can not find a good Western equivalent. However it may be said that Qi hai (CV6) or false lower Dan tien western equivalent is the Adominal area in the actual location in the Acupunture text list is 1.5 inches below Umbilicus.

I have no desire to change your beliefs I only want to explain things better so others(maybe yourself) understand Qi and the topics around it. It's fine if you can only see or get to a certain point in your understanding of Qi.

As for your Ramsey analogy I am not sure if you alluding to me being Pompous or not?:idunno:

This is a piece from my blog it might help explain Ancient Chinese thought within Qi and its connection with modern science.

Demystifying Qi

There is alot of confusion of what Qi is and isn't.
Some say Qi is a mystical energy in Chinese.
I want to present my opinion on Qi.
Looking at the literal defination of the Hanzi for Qi we are presented with the characters Yun(steam) Mi(cooking rice) Chih(Pot) So the idea of the vapors coming from cooked rice.
When we look at Jing we see the same character Mi(uncooked rice) among the other characters. We can conclude that the refining or cooking does the release of Qi come into being.
The idea in our modern western translation is best as energy. Because the cooking generates the energy. Also if we look into other characters with the Qi such as Tian Qi (Heaven's Qi" we know that it is Heaven's energy. In modern times the best way to describe "Heaven's energy" is the Atmosphere. The many gases would best describe the Qi or energy of "Heaven" The same could be said of Di Qi (Earth's Qi) Which is Geothermal. When we speak of Qi in general we are mostly speaking of Ren Qi or human Qi.
Even then so is there many catagories of Qi within the human body.
Kong Qi is the air we breathe. This is known as Oxygen.
Yuan Qi is the orginal energy we are born with. Some may say this comes from Yuan Jing(orginal essence) which would apply are genetics and DNA.
Ying Qi is the Qi from the food we eat that is use to nourish the body. We can say it is the carbs,proteins,vitamins,minerals and so on use to nuture the body.
Wei Qi is the defensive Qi this is the immune system both inside with the white blood cells and the outer layer of skin use to protect the body.
The organs each have their own type of Qi.
The organs Qi is the balance of energy within the organ to perform its function correctly.
This means for example the Lungs ability to inhale Oxygen and exhale Carbon dioxide free from stagnation.
Qi is also related to the blood known as Xue.
It is the Mitochondria that is the prime source of Qi which releases into ATP. Similar to the Hanzi for Jing uncooked rice becoming the steam found in the character for Qi.

Those this is not a complete write up on Qi it is a small bridge of Qi and modern Western medicine.

 

[skinters]

Just a note here

Wing Chun is a CMA meaning Chinese Martial Art

Dantien is used in Chinese Martial Arts, Chinese Culture and Chinese Medicine and the western view of things is not the be all end all of things. If you whish to discuss things like Qi using western thinking and exclude any discussion of the dantien then you are already way off base since there is no such thing as Qi in western thinking.

Just wanted to mention that.

quite the opposite in a way i only want to de mystify the original concept of chi dan tien etc, so it could maybe be more easy to digest,as far as i am aware dan tein, chi etc started as chinese mythical folklore.it is also founded in Chinese traditional religion,which any questioning of that can arouse deep feelings like all religion can.

you say there is no thing as qi in western thinking which is fair enough,but that is quite a broad generalization,in the way that more and more people are becoming more knowlegable of other cultures .

To be truly open-minded, one must be willing to step beyond the boundaries and limitations that have been inherited. To pursue the truth, you must be willing to consider the teachings that cultures have to offer, but you must also hold those teachings up to careful examination.

i think there can be a succesfull blending of both asian and western cultures and if the present is anything to go by there is no reason that the future cannot continue to de mystify both ways of thinking and take it to another level.

 

[skinters]

What I mean is I can not find a Western location for the lower Dan tien as I find with the Middle Dan tien and Upper Dan tien. But if you want to get technical on the Lower Dan tien location Qi hai(Cv6) is not the real lower dan tien. The real lower Dan tien is located in Western terms the intestines. The Lower false Dan tien is located on the Conception vessel and the Real lower Dan tien is located "inner more" hence why I can not find a good Western equivalent. However it may be said that Qi hai (CV6) or false lower Dan tien western equivalent is the Adominal area in the actual location in the Acupunture text list is 1.5 inches below Umbilicus.

I have no desire to change your beliefs I only want to explain things better so others(maybe yourself) understand Qi and the topics around it. It's fine if you can only see or get to a certain point in your understanding of Qi.

As for your Ramsey analogy I am not sure if you alluding to me being Pompous or not?:idunno:

This is a piece from my blog it might help explain Ancient Chinese thought within Qi and its connection with modern science.

well like i said to me the presumed dan tien etc ,is just good focus being able to find good balance through centering . i was more interested in the way focus is attached more in that area excluding the body as a whole,more than where ever it exists or not.

as far as i can see you have a very good understanding of its concepts .
and no i was not alluding to you being pompous.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thanks for that great post Jadecloud!

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

quite the opposite in a way i only want to de mystify the original concept of chi dan tien etc, so it could maybe be more easy to digest,as far as i am aware dan tein, chi etc started as chinese mythical folklore.it is also founded in Chinese traditional religion,which any questioning of that can arouse deep feelings like all religion can.

I Think my post and the piece from my blog help demystify Qi and Tan tien. I don't think anyone as of yet can pin point the idea of when and where the Dan tien's come from. It may have started or transformed from the Shangqing sect which specialized in internal visions of "monsters" and protective deities. From there it may have resided into the 3 Dan tiens this is in Chin dynasty 265-420 C.E.. Also in each of the 3 Dan tiens there lived Monsters known as 3 worms. If we look at the location Intestines,Brains we may understand how the early Taoist came into that idea.
I don't think we see the Dan tien's before the Chin Dynasty when there was a heavy influence of Shamanism and magic and external alchemy being used. We can see clearly the evolution of Deity with the internal Dan tien with the Shangqing sect.

i think there can be a succesfull blending of both asian and western cultures and if the present is anything to go by there is no reason that the future cannot continue to de mystify both ways of thinking and take it to another level.

Working on it. :wavey: Though I do not talk much about the religious,magic usuage of Qi such as Talisman and so on because I can not find a western science rationalization for it so I simply leave that as religious.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

well like i said to me the presumed dan tien etc ,is just good focus being able to find good balance through centering . i was more interested in the way focus is attached more in that area excluding the body as a whole,more than where ever it exists or not.

as far as i can see you have a very good understanding of its concepts .
and no i was not alluding to you being pompous.

I think we can all agree with that.

Thank you in no way is it my intent to be pompous. Actually I should be thanking you because some of these topics I really have to think about and research to make sure I have the right understanding of what I am talking about sometimes I am wrong about things!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

quite the opposite in a way i only want to de mystify the original concept of chi dan tien etc, so it could maybe be more easy to digest,as far as i am aware dan tein, chi etc started as chinese mythical folklore.it is also founded in Chinese traditional religion,which any questioning of that can arouse deep feelings like all religion can.

you say there is no thing as qi in western thinking which is fair enough,but that is quite a broad generalization,in the way that more and more people are becoming more knowlegable of other cultures .

To be truly open-minded, one must be willing to step beyond the boundaries and limitations that have been inherited. To pursue the truth, you must be willing to consider the teachings that cultures have to offer, but you must also hold those teachings up to careful examination.

i think there can be a succesfull blending of both asian and western cultures and if the present is anything to go by there is no reason that the future cannot continue to de mystify both ways of thinking and take it to another level.

To be truly open minded you need to also understand Chinese culture and not force western thought on it. If you understand Chinese culture dantien and qi are not religious at all. Taking this to religion is a western misunderstanding of things Chinese much the same way many westerners take Shen which translates as spirit to be religious when in fact it is just talking about the mind from a Chinese POV. And if you talk to many Chinese there is nothing mystical about any of it, again this is a lack of understanding form a western POV.

To a TCM Doc it is not religious at all actually. It is no more religious than Anatomy and Physiology are to a western MD. To a CMA person it is just part of the training and again no more religious than pushups are to a western boxer.

You will find dantien and qi in eastern religions and philosophy but you will also find chairs and pillows there as well and they are not religious either just something that the religion uses.