Single sticking hands: How the Bong Sau disturbs opponents balance and structure.

[mook jong man]

This is a mistake you see a lot in single sticking hands, and probably one that we've all been guilty of at some stage.

You do your palm strike , he redirects it and you think oh well that didn't work and you take your force off and start again.

But by keeping the force on and focused on his center, as he rolls you up into Bong Sau with his attack he will begin to feel his structure start to collapse and his balance affected.

[video=youtube_share;X8DvnPGhMn0]http://youtu.be/X8DvnPGhMn0[/video]

 

[Kwan Sau]

Mook, so are you saying the guy in the video is correct or...?
Not sure who the guy is or lineage but holy cow that bong sau is super high. If it works for him then thats great but his high bong sau is a no-no imho.
Thx for posting the vid though.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, so are you saying the guy in the video is correct or...?
Not sure who the guy is or lineage but holy cow that bong sau is super high. If it works for him then thats great but his high bong sau is a no-no imho.
Thx for posting the vid though.

As per our lineage which is Tsui Seung Tin he is correct.
The other guy is taller than him , so of course his Bong Sau will have to go up higher to stop him from being hit.
The height is irrelevant really , the main thing is that the structure of the arm is maintained.

I have heard this thing before about other lineages restricting the height of their Bong Sau and I honestly don't get it.
Rolling up a little higher can help to absorb a lot of power out a forceful attack , and even if the Bong Sau is high it will still allow for force to be conducted down to the ground making you heavier and more stable and the opponent less stable.

 

[Kwan Sau]

As per our lineage which is Tsui Seung Tin he is correct.
The other guy is taller than him , so of course his Bong Sau will have to go up higher to stop him from being hit.
The height is irrelevant really , the main thing is that the structure of the arm is maintained.

I have heard this thing before about other lineages restricting the height of their Bong Sau and I honestly don't get it.
Rolling up a little higher can help to absorb a lot of power out a forceful attack , and even if the Bong Sau is high it will still allow for force to be conducted down to the ground making you heavier and more stable and the opponent less stable.

Cool, thx for replying. Yes, I agree (somewhat) about adjusting the height of bong sau relevant to your opponents height, etc...
I understand now that this video is TST as are you and it helps me to understand better how you guys do things.
On the other hand, the position of this guys bong sau relevant to his partners' height would be a major violation of proper mechanics in my WC.
No biggie, it is these variations in interpreting WC that makes it all so interesting!
Thx again!

 

[mook jong man]

Cool, thx for replying. Yes, I agree (somewhat) about adjusting the height of bong sau relevant to your opponents height, etc...
I understand now that this video is TST as are you and it helps me to understand better how you guys do things.
On the other hand, the position of this guys bong sau relevant to his partners' height would be a major violation of proper mechanics in my WC.
No biggie, it is these variations in interpreting WC that makes it all so interesting!
Thx again!

Well if the guys wrist goes up high then you have to roll up high to defend yourself , if you attempt to keep it low you will be hit or he can press directly down onto your Bong Sau to collapse it.

Can you try and clarify a bit more why you think that it violates mechanics.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Hi Mook. I will do my best to add clarity to my previous but via discussion forums it is somewhat difficult...but, here goes:

Well if the guys wrist goes up high then you have to roll up high to defend yourself

In order to accomplish what you are describing, I agree, but only to a certain point... In other words, my WC response to the guy on the right's punch trajectory would end up with me taking advantage of the fact that his punch/fist is already veering off/above its intended target (i.e. my face) so he is actually helping me defeat his structure.

if you attempt to keep it low you will be hit or he can press directly down onto your Bong Sau to collapse it.

Again, I agree...but in my WC we would not "attempt to keep it low" and/or if opponent were to "press directly down" then that would generate an opportunity to redirect and/or strike, etc.

Can you try and clarify a bit more why you think that it violates mechanics.

I know that this probably did not help our discussion because such things are very difficult to "discuss" verbally instead of "physically"... haha. Sorry Mook, did the best I could.

 

[mook jong man]

Hi Mook. I will do my best to add clarity to my previous but via discussion forums it is somewhat difficult...but, here goes:



In order to accomplish what you are describing, I agree, but only to a certain point... In other words, my WC response to the guy on the right's punch trajectory would end up with me taking advantage of the fact that his punch/fist is already veering off/above its intended target (i.e. my face) so he is actually helping me defeat his structure.



Again, I agree...but in my WC we would not "attempt to keep it low" and/or if opponent were to "press directly down" then that would generate an opportunity to redirect and/or strike, etc.



I know that this probably did not help our discussion because such things are very difficult to "discuss" verbally instead of "physically"... haha. Sorry Mook, did the best I could.

But you don't know if his punch is veering upwards , his fist could be pointing upwards because he has been redirected , but his forward force can still be directed at your face or chest.

I do this all the time with students , I roll the Fook Sau right up high then leave it there .
The student thinks their safe and stupidly takes their hand away to do something , and I bring it down and slap them in the head.

But I agree it's hopeless trying to explain stuff on a forum , in person you could demonstrate all this stuff in 30 seconds.
We all need virtual reality avatars that we could use to demonstrate our theories.

 

[Eric_H]

This is a mistake you see a lot in single sticking hands, and probably one that we've all been guilty of at some stage.

You do your palm strike , he redirects it and you think oh well that didn't work and you take your force off and start again.

But by keeping the force on and focused on his center, as he rolls you up into Bong Sau with his attack he will begin to feel his structure start to collapse and his balance affected.

[video=youtube_share;X8DvnPGhMn0]http://youtu.be/X8DvnPGhMn0[/video]

so I'll ask it being a non YM guy - what's with that weak palm strike as the opener? Why not throw an actual strike to y'know... the face, shoulder, something that can actually be impacted by a palm strike like that?

 

[mook jong man]

so I'll ask it being a non YM guy - what's with that weak palm strike as the opener? Why not throw an actual strike to y'know... the face, shoulder, something that can actually be impacted by a palm strike like that?

Probably just doing it slow so the camera can follow what he is doing.
But the palm strike is not the point , the point is what you are doing after the palm strike.

He'd be quite capable of caving that guys chest in with a palm strike , but that is not going to help illustrate his point about how the Bong Sau works following the failed palm strike.

 

[Eric_H]

I hear you, but the formation of the bong sao happens based on where you are when the strike ends. he's basically running low to dai bong with his strike before coming upstairs... why not just stay upstairs or let the opponent take you low?

 

[mook jong man]

I hear you, but the formation of the bong sao happens based on where you are when the strike ends. he's basically running low to dai bong with his strike before coming upstairs... why not just stay upstairs or let the opponent take you low?

That's a good question Eric.
In our version of single sticking hands we always aim the palm strike for the chest.

Mainly for two reasons I believe , the first is probably a safety issue , we do a lot of work on springy force by suddenly taking a hand away , much safer for the strike to spring forward and hit the chest rather than the partners face.

Another reason is that is easier for a beginner to redirect a palm strike to the chest due to leverage , but once their skill level and structure develops and their ready to move on to double sticking hands they should be reaching the point where they can redirect strikes to the face or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[geezer]

Mook, so are you saying the guy in the video is correct or...?
Not sure who the guy is or lineage but holy cow that bong sau is super high. If it works for him then thats great but his high bong sau is a no-no imho.
Thx for posting the vid though.

Kwun sau: In the WC I train, we also seldom raise our bong sau so high in dan chi. Although, as Mook pointed out, it does depend on the direction and force of the incoming punch, and that is not possible to determine watching a video. It must be felt. Regardless, in my WC we do not attempt to lift up our bong sau. If our opponent's punch has a "heavy-elbow" and comes in straight, his force rolls and bends our arm into a mid-level bong sau.. If he presses down forcefully and strikes low, we let our bong bend down with his force. If he punches high, often we can slip his force and straighten our arm into an inside gate punch to deflect his punch. That is the typical pattern. A low punch rolls us into a low bong. A mid-level punch into a mid-level bong. And a high, extended punch is countered with a deflecting punch. And, if he steps forward and drives through heavily, we let his force turn us and deflect his punch laterally, not vertically.

You must understand, that we do not make our own defense. We do not intentionally bend our own arm into a bong. Our opponent's force bends our arm into bong sau. His energy determines the shape of our bong. About the only kind of punch that would shape our bong into such a high bong sau is a close, elbow-heavy rising punch. That happens, but it's not the norm in dan chi.

This is the key difference I see between the way many other WC branches practice dan chi and the lineage I belong to. In dan chi most groups seem to counter the initial palm strike with a shape downward jut sau, followed by a punch which is, in turn. countered by a lifting bong sau. This leads to a pronounced sinking and lifting cycle in dan chi that is very apparent when views from the side. By contrast, we counter the palm with a very minimal jum sau, and then respond to the following punch, rolling into bong but not forcefully lifting our arm. So seen from the side, there is far less vertical movement.

Check out the following clip made by a guy from more or less the same lineage as me to see what I mean when I say that our opponent makes our bong sau:

 

[Kwan Sau]

Kwun sau: In the WC I train, we also seldom raise our bong sau so high in dan chi. Although, as Mook pointed out, it does depend on the direction and force of the incoming punch, and that is not possible to determine watching a video. It must be felt. Regardless, in my WC we do not attempt to lift up our bong sau. If our opponent's punch has a "heavy-elbow" and comes in straight, his force rolls and bends our arm into a mid-level bong sau.. If he presses down forcefully and strikes low, we let our bong bend down with his force. If he punches high, often we can slip his force and straighten our arm into an inside gate punch to deflect his punch. That is the typical pattern. A low punch rolls us into a low bong. A mid-level punch into a mid-level bong. And a high, extended punch is countered with a deflecting punch. And, if he steps forward and drives through heavily, we let his force turn us and deflect his punch laterally, not vertically.

You must understand, that we do not make our own defense. We do not intentionally bend our own arm into a bong. Our opponent's force bends our arm into bong sau. His energy determines the shape of our bong. About the only kind of punch that would shape our bong into such a high bong sau is a close, elbow-heavy rising punch. That happens, but it's not the norm in dan chi.

This is the key difference I see between the way many other WC branches practice dan chi and the lineage I belong to. In dan chi most groups seem to counter the initial palm strike with a shape downward jut sau, followed by a punch which is, in turn. countered by a lifting bong sau. This leads to a pronounced sinking and lifting cycle in dan chi that is very apparent when views from the side. By contrast, we counter the palm with a very minimal jum sau, and then respond to the following punch, rolling into bong but not forcefully lifting our arm. So seen from the side, there is far less vertical movement.

Interesting, thanks Geezer. All very interesting perspectives on Bong usage in dan chi sau...

 

[KPM]

As per our lineage which is Tsui Seung Tin he is correct.
The other guy is taller than him , so of course his Bong Sau will have to go up higher to stop him from being hit.
The height is irrelevant really , the main thing is that the structure of the arm is maintained.

I have heard this thing before about other lineages restricting the height of their Bong Sau and I honestly don't get it.
Rolling up a little higher can help to absorb a lot of power out a forceful attack , and even if the Bong Sau is high it will still allow for force to be conducted down to the ground making you heavier and more stable and the opponent less stable.

I agree with Mook. In Pin Sun WCK this is called a "Hok Bong" or "Crane's Wing." I believe the instructor in the video used this term as well. Maybe some WCK lineages don't have the Hok Bong? The Hok Bong is different from the Jung Bong that a lot of people use in Dan Chi Sau. Different doesn't mean wrong. The Jung Bong typically deflects to the side and the Hok Bong typically deflects upwards. Both are useful.

 

[KPM]

I hear you, but the formation of the bong sao happens based on where you are when the strike ends. he's basically running low to dai bong with his strike before coming upstairs... why not just stay upstairs or let the opponent take you low?

I think his partner is taking him low. He launches his palm strike at the the partner's sternum, and the partner's defensive Jut Sau redirects it to a low position. A palm strike to the face would not be practical from the starting position because he would have to lift against or fight the partner's Fook Sau. Then, rather than just accepting that his palm strike has failed and wait for the partner's punch, he maintains some forward pressure resulting in the Dai Bong which is then converted to a Hok Bong as the opponent punches. He could done a Jung Bong instead of doing a Hok Bong, but because they remain facing square and the opponent is throwing a relatively high punch a Hok Bong is better. A good way to vary this particular version of Dan Chi Sao to make it more reactive and less predictable would be for the one partner to randomly change his punch after the Jut Sau between a mid-level punch to the sternum which would illicit a Jung Bong from his partner, and a higher punch to the face which would illicit a Hok Bong from his partner.

 

[Danny T]

Kwun sau: In the WC I train, we also seldom raise our bong sau so high in dan chi. Although, as Mook pointed out, it does depend on the direction and force of the incoming punch, and that is not possible to determine watching a video. It must be felt. Regardless, in my WC we do not attempt to lift up our bong sau. If our opponent's punch has a "heavy-elbow" and comes in straight, his force rolls and bends our arm into a mid-level bong sau.. If he presses down forcefully and strikes low, we let our bong bend down with his force. If he punches high, often we can slip his force and straighten our arm into an inside gate punch to deflect his punch. That is the typical pattern. A low punch rolls us into a low bong. A mid-level punch into a mid-level bong. And a high, extended punch is countered with a deflecting punch. And, if he steps forward and drives through heavily, we let his force turn us and deflect his punch laterally, not vertically.

You must understand, that we do not make our own defense. We do not intentionally bend our own arm into a bong. Our opponent's force bends our arm into bong sau. His energy determines the shape of our bong. About the only kind of punch that would shape our bong into such a high bong sau is a close, elbow-heavy rising punch. That happens, but it's not the norm in dan chi.

This is the key difference I see between the way many other WC branches practice dan chi and the lineage I belong to. In dan chi most groups seem to counter the initial palm strike with a shape downward jut sau, followed by a punch which is, in turn. countered by a lifting bong sau. This leads to a pronounced sinking and lifting cycle in dan chi that is very apparent when views from the side. By contrast, we counter the palm with a very minimal jum sau, and then respond to the following punch, rolling into bong but not forcefully lifting our arm. So seen from the side, there is far less vertical movement.

Check out the following clip made by a guy from more or less the same lineage as me to see what I mean when I say that our opponent makes our bong sau:

We have a few levels of training and practicing dan chi sao.
Level 1. learning the pattern, learning to feel the force changes, learning to let go and yield, learning to stick, learning to maintain just enough forward pressure through tension in the skin. With this we use the jut and forward screwing motion for bong sao (not a lifting of the elbow). The yielding is done by the palm strike arm vs the jut. As the follow up punch is delivered the bong is created by sticking and the forward pressure with the screwing action of the arm.
level 2. is off the jum sao and the bong is created by sticking yet yielding to the punching arm pressure.

In reality either of us can create the pressure; the opponent through his punch or I create the pressure through my forward movement. I can screw my arm forward with elbow pressure while the contact point yields into bong sao.

 

[geezer]

In reality either of us can create the pressure; the opponent through his punch or I create the pressure through my forward movement. I can screw my arm forward with elbow pressure while the contact point yields into bong sao.

Although it's hard to say without actually crossing bridges and feeling what's going on, it sounds like we are doing pretty much the same thing.

 

[Vajramusti]

Although it's hard to say without actually crossing bridges and feeling what's going on, it sounds like we are doing pretty much the same thing.

--------------


dan chi sao is a superb Ip Man addition to wing chun. Training one hand ata time before working two hand chi sao teaches both independence and cooperation
of the hands. Control of each motion is important. Cycles of neutral, attack and defense. Control is the key - not muscling.
Lots of details involved in doing it well. Needs guidance in learning it well.

 

[Danny T]

Although it's hard to say without actually crossing bridges and feeling what's going on, it sounds like we are doing pretty much the same thing.

Agreed.

dan chi sao is a superb Ip Man addition to wing chun. Training one hand at a time before working two hand chi sao teaches both independence and cooperation of the hands. Control of each motion is important. Cycles of neutral, attack and defense. Control is the key - not muscling.
Lots of details involved in doing it well. Needs guidance in learning it well.

Agreed.

 

[Vajramusti]

Mook- apparently Tsui tsong tin has passed away