Bong Sau : passive or invasive. ?

[mook jong man]

Does your lineage use Bong Sau only as a means of redirecting a greater force or is it used to attack as well ?

In ours it does both , for example we will have the intention of striking through , but the strike is blocked or we are met with too much force so we will go into a Bong Sau to redirect and trap the opponents force.

The other way we use it is to attack the opponents balance , this is
where we will carefully coordinate rotating into Bong Sau with our step.

Done properly this will have the effect of uprooting the opponent out of his stance and weakening his arm structure.

At the point where we have penetrated the defence we can then tack a palm strike or a fist onto the end of our Bong Sau and turn it into a strike while keeping contact with his arm and protecting ourselves at the same time.

 

[Vajramusti]

FWIW IMO bong sao can be a motion used for defense or offense...depending on timing and opening.

joy chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com

 

[profesormental]

It depends.

There are several methods of execution of the Bong Sao which, depending on the circumstance can be used to deflect, manipulate, strike, control or shift to another posture.

 

[matsu]

i love using the bong as a strike like a flicking action to stun,or push them so i can follow up and attack.
matsu

 

[coffeerox]

Does your lineage use Bong Sau only as a means of redirecting a greater force or is it used to attack as well?

In ours it does both , for example we will have the intention of striking through , but the strike is blocked or we are met with too much force so we will go into a Bong Sau to redirect and trap the opponents force.

That is my method as well. Being given forward energy and giving up your first 'stick' (bong sao) enables one to have enormous control once it's redirected.

The other way we use it is to attack the opponents balance , this is
where we will carefully coordinate rotating into Bong Sau with our step.

Done properly this will have the effect of uprooting the opponent out of his stance and weakening his arm structure.

I don't quite understand this one. Do you mean to step into the bong to create a bridge and then shifting once your opponent resists?

The one I was planning to practice this week was to step off center and intercept the jab with a bong/wu (seen in William Cheung's lineage

 

[mook jong man]

That is my method as well. Being given forward energy and giving up your first 'stick' (bong sao) enables one to have enormous control once it's redirected.



I don't quite understand this one. Do you mean to step into the bong to create a bridge and then shifting once your opponent resists?

The one I was planning to practice this week was to step off center and intercept the jab with a bong/wu (seen in William Cheung's lineage

Easiest way to practice is to have your partner hold his arm up very strong and rigid with a bend in his arm like one half of a boxing type guard.
With your same side arm you place your Tan Sau inside his wrist so you have wrist to wrist contact.

Step forward on the same side as your Tan Sau , as you start to step forward raise your Tan Sau slightly and then rotate into Bong Sau.
The whole thing has to be coordinated with the step or it wont work.
If you have used your body weight correctly and performed the rotation from Tan to Bong correctly , then these things should happen .

1. If his arm structure is rigid and tense then he will start to be uprooted out of his stance by the Bong Sau.
2. If his arm structure is weak then your turning from Bong to Tan will displace his arm , allowing you to slide your Bong Sau through and strike.
3. Usually its a combination of both that happens , he starts to go off balance and then his arm structure is broken allowing you to strike through.
4. A good tip with these things is to practice them against your partners stationary arm , a bit like using him as a wooden dummy .

Then you can just work on the mechanics of the technique without worrying about the added factors of reflex and timing .
Then after you have the rudiments of the technique embedded then you can start applying them against real time attacks.

 

[dosk3n]

We use it in both ways also in chi sau. When we practice it going from Lan Sau turning into Bong Sau with a punch coming towards us we still point it forward to take them off balance while at the sme time rotating to deflect. However at the same time if your stance isnt correct you will be taken off balance.

From experience at full speed though, sparring etc Bong Sau isnt really used as much and seems to get used more as a last resort when they brake past the range of Pak Sau. As Jin says when they get through the front door. In this way it is harder to use it to take them off balance but still a very effective move when they take you by suprise.

 

[cwk]

bong action with chap choi hand to the ribs when the opponent uses tan to the inside of your arm is a nice little sneaky attack when doing chi sau.
when done properly, this actually temporarily locks their tan hand up on your bong arm.

 

[Seeker]

This is ironic, or is that coincidence? Anyway, just last night we were doing a sort of transitioning drill where we were feeling where a bong sau or lan sau might be needed.

If you could redirect or pass the punch with the bong then you would simply counter strike, if the punch was more on center then the bong became a lan sau. Sliding up and under using the lan to trap or intercept their next striking hand, and then strike. That lan could transition into a tan/laup too on their other striking hand.

So yes, redirect or attack, in a sense.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Interesting, I've never seen or heard of a lan sau used as anything other than an attack.

 

[dosk3n]

We use Lan Sau to trap, take off balance, hold a lot of shopping bags or to help us lean agains a wall. Its a very good position

 

[Nabakatsu]

I don't suppose you'd happen to have a clip demonstrating lan sau used for trapping? I can't find anything on youtube, if not, you could possibly explain a bit more, I must admit I am very curious.

 

[dosk3n]

It all depends on your use of Lan Sau. When you say youve only seen it as an attack do you mean as an albow strike?

Lan Sau is barring arm so use it as a bar. For an example once you have punched bring that arm down into Lan Sau and jam it against the oponent to trap there arm down against the body.

http://cincoterro.com/hands_movements_of_wing_tzun.htm#17%20Lan%20sau%20-%20Bar(ing)%20hand

Just imagine one of those arms doing Lan Sau but it being pushed against the oponents body, arm or crossed arms to pin them in place while the other hand strikes.

Now if you do mean as an elbow strike then while rolling in Chi Sau the arm that is in Bong Sau can be used to grab the opponents Tan Sau while rolling the elbow over the opponents Fook Sau arm and pinning the arm with the Elbow which is also similar to Lan Sau.

 

[dosk3n]

I will try and get a video tonight when at class if I remember my camera.

 

[Seeker]

I've been shown the turning lan sau's in Chum Kiu to be a defense/attack-with-elbow against a bear-hug (from the rear) or a general attack/defense/clearing tactic for someone at your side.

It also shows up in the dummy form for trapping the arms downward. The motions are not the same in the form, however the shape turns out to be the same.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[dosk3n]

Thats what I was meaning when explaining the Lan Saw as trapping or pinning. The motion isnt the same however the position is. Its still Lan Sau just not a turning Lan Sau.

 

[Poor Uke]

Re. lan sau: although all WC postions can be used for a variety of things, I tend to use lan sau mostly as a trapping/pinning kinda position.

Re. bong sau: I f****n' hate bong sau. I find it the most rediculous position in WC. It has very weak structure and is an appauling position to put you arms in for a variety of reasons (eg opening up your armpit and side for one, giving you opponent a lever for another). IMO it should only ever be use as a transitory postion and gotten out of as soon as humanly possible. I was taught to use it passivley which allows for a nice elbow to the face when intercepting in comming strikes but still I find it far too compromising.

 

[mook jong man]

Re. lan sau: although all WC postions can be used for a variety of things, I tend to use lan sau mostly as a trapping/pinning kinda position.

Re. bong sau: I f****n' hate bong sau. I find it the most rediculous position in WC. It has very weak structure and is an appauling position to put you arms in for a variety of reasons (eg opening up your armpit and side for one, giving you opponent a lever for another). IMO it should only ever be use as a transitory postion and gotten out of as soon as humanly possible. I was taught to use it passivley which allows for a nice elbow to the face when intercepting in comming strikes but still I find it far too compromising.

On the contrary , I find Bong Sau to have a very strong structure in attack and defence.
I can be in my stance and have someone leaning on my Bong Sau and they will almost be leaning their whole body in at 45 degrees to try and move me or collapse my arm , and when the force does eventually become to great I just sink the elbow into Tan Sau and pivot , and the person falls off the" edge of the circle" as my late Sifu would say.

If we did not have Bong sau we would have to invent something very similar to it , as we would have no way to rotate force off to the sides on the horizontal plane.

When performed properly and synchronized with moving in of the body weight it has a great ability to unbalance the opponent.

At first just the slight upward movement of the Tan Sau starts the process of unbalancing , then the full rotation of the forearm focused into the opponents centre comes into play and completes the job.


But as you say it should be a transition , otherwise it will be latched down at the first opportunity by the opponent or pressure applied at the elbow for an arm bar.

But even these can be countered by just sinking your elbow back in to Tan sau , which does remind me of a very worthwhile drill where everytime the opponent tries to latch your Bong Sau down you sink your elbow into Tan Sau.

Or if the opponent tries to apply force or manipulate your elbow in any way such as an attempted arm lock then you simply sink your arm into Tan Sau

 

[sgerhardt45]

Does your lineage use Bong Sau only as a means of redirecting a greater force or is it used to attack as well ?

In ours it does both , for example we will have the intention of striking through , but the strike is blocked or we are met with too much force so we will go into a Bong Sau to redirect and trap the opponents force.

I once saw a white crane guy use what he called a bong sau at a finger strike to his opponent's throat, I had never thought to use it that way in WC, it'd always just been redirecting before.

 

[mook jong man]

I once saw a white crane guy use what he called a bong sau at a finger strike to his opponent's throat, I had never thought to use it that way in WC, it'd always just been redirecting before.

Once its done its job of destabilizing the opponents balance and created a gap in the defence , you can pretty much tack anything on the end of it you like fingerstrike , hook punch , or a palm strike.
As long as the striking tool is in line with the forearm so that it can strike with power.