Silk Reeling Demo (A)

Oily Dragon

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Sorry, that's way off!

Zhan Zhuang is meant to train you to achieve biomechanical unity by forcing you to distribute the effort of standing through as much of your body as possible. First, you shift between feeling the weight on balls of the feet vs. heels, by alternating between using the calves and thighs. Once you distribute the effort between those, you are using "legs." You then extrapolate this distribution until no part of the body feels as if it's carrying the effort more than any other. That can take years.

After a few years of practising, I achieved this state, where all I could notice was the pressure of my body weight on the pads of my feet. Internally, because no part of my body stood out as taking the effort of standing, I felt hollow, which is the best word to describe it, aside from feeling "ready." On the squash court, people called me "rabbit," and this was in my late fifties. I reacted much faster, without much thought at all.

One result of this practice is, yes, as they promise, a tremendous amount of energy when you need it.

Yes, it's counter-intuitive, but like many endeavours, it cannot be adequately appreciated without direct experience, and in this case, a lot of direct experience, because that experience changes over time. The student really needs to do it for a long time before its utility becomes apparent.
You're right, the extra g was wrong.

I've learned many different versions of Zhan Zhuang, including in Weijia classes. Standing on one leg versions, moving versions with stepping etc.

They are ultimately all the same, letting the body sink on its frame, similar to static Qigong like the Seven Golden Gates. This is why most people can only stand like that for a couple minutes (or less) before training a while, and then holding position for an hour. Relaxation and full body awareness are key, for sure. And then the moving versions like in Tai Chi are really damn hard at first, because moving your body weight slowly through a space is work. You sweat right?

One of the big differentiators in Chinese Qigong is the isotonic vs isometric. In that sense Tai Chi Zhan Zhuang sort of stands out as odd. I believe this is because it is a lot older than Tai Chi itself and goes back thousands of years.

If you ever get a chance to read the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine, there are a lot physical recommendations that still live up to modern medical scrutiny. Zhan Zhuang practice is one of those. Helps with everything from lowe back pain (because of the psoas muscle) and acid reflux, proper alignment of the GI tract from years of bad posture.

Everything you said lines up, pun intended.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I've learned many different versions of Zhan Zhuang, including in Weijia classes. Standing on one leg versions, moving versions with stepping etc. They are ultimately all the same, letting the body sink on its frame, similar to static Qigong like the Seven Golden Gates.
Zhan Zhuang can also be used for:

- develop flexibility.
- develop balance.
- enhance combat skill.
- ...

13 Tai Bao (13 postures):

13_taibo.jpg


 

JowGaWolf

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Of course. My teacher frequently told me that speed is more important, perhaps, the most important in a fight. The faster one usually wins. You need speed and power/technique, etc but speed is king.

I don't like to believe this, but that is what he said and he is probably right :)
I'm not sure about speed as being King. It helps but I think timing is king. without timing even speed becomes ineffective. I've sparred against people who where faster than me and I out performed then with better timing even though I was slower.

I've seen the same thing in other sports like basket ball and baseball. I may not be fast enough to throw and land the first strike but I can time the second or third strike.

I teach students not to stress over the first punch. Instead use that first punch to learn your opponent's timing. Don't beat the first punch but time the second and third. The more my opponent punches the easier it will be for me to learn his timing.
 
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Appledog

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Zhan Zhuang can also be used for:

- develop flexibility.
- develop balance.
- enhance combat skill.
- ...

13 Tai Bao (13 postures):

youtube]FCDY6nJdnwI

Here's a posture from our 13 tai bao done in our school,


I do not know why it is different than the more commonly shown 13 Tai Bao, or why there are 13 of them too. It is odd to me that there is more than one "13 tai bao" and both are completely different but there are still "13" of them and they are called "tai bao". But, from what I have been able to gather, some different arts have come up with different unique versions of this and they are all different.

Then, in Xingyi/etc. there are other, completely different standing postures. Sometimes it's so confusing I don't know what to practice first.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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why there are 13 of them too.
When I was in China, I found out there are more than 13. My teacher's brother told me that "Han De Ba Cong 勗唳 - pull onion off the ground" is also one of the 13 Tai Bao.

The Chinese word "Tai Bao 憭芯" is prince's teacher. The prince's teacher can help the prince to become emperor. The static posture (or dynamic posture) can help a MA guy to enhance his MA skill.

single_leg_squat.jpg
 

JowGaWolf

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Here's a posture from our 13 tai bao done in our school,


I do not know why it is different than the more commonly shown 13 Tai Bao, or why there are 13 of them too. It is odd to me that there is more than one "13 tai bao" and both are completely different but there are still "13" of them and they are called "tai bao". But, from what I have been able to gather, some different arts have come up with different unique versions of this and they are all different.

Then, in Xingyi/etc. there are other, completely different standing postures. Sometimes it's so confusing I don't know what to practice first.
This looks similar a Luk Choy in Jow Ga Kung Fu. Choy Li Fut, Hung Gay, Choy Ga has a similar punch. Basically it's a hook punch with a clearing hand.

The movement is to step off center line to avoid the punch. The raising of the arm is part of the power drive. In fighting, the arm would be in a guard position, then I would lower the arm and raise back up to drive the power for the hook Raising of the arm readies it so I can use it to defend against punches to my face. Notice that the Hook punch doesn't finish in front of the face. This is intentional because at that posture you are baiting a punch to your face. Raising of the arm will distract your opponent and make him keep his guard high, The hook will land under the guard.. In Jow Ga. I would have thrown some attacks to the top of the head so that this guard would be higher. But stepping off center line should trigger him to turn to face the new position of my face. When he does this he will expose his side to my punch and will create a blind spot.
1693756160048.jpeg


The posture also puts punching arm into position to be a clearing arm or a striking arm with a back fist.

This is only one of the applications for what I think I'm looking at.

Your video makes me think that postures are snapshots of body position. If I had to draw my techniques, I would draw key poses and positions and teach the rest as basics. if I wanted to get a relaxed mental training version "A walk through of the technique" Then it would look like this. this. I would know what I'm doing but on lookers would be puzzled.

I could be way off on my assumptions, but it really popped out that this is very similar to a Luck Choy.
 

wanderingstudent

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The silk reeling start from

- bottom and up, and
- back to front.

View attachment 29994

The silk reeling then reach to the whole body.

View attachment 29995
I initially learned Yang style. It is nice to see pictures like this, but how does this happen? I never felt any spiral rooting, is the action of turning the right foot outwards and the left foot inwards while sinking creating this?


Anyway, I started training in Hun Yuan Tai Chi- which is a offshoot of Chen style. While it is not easy, guess what? Everywhere in the set is silk reeling, which I like. Yes, we do silk reeling as a separate exercise; - also easy to explain Peng-Lu-Ji-An. And, I would go so far as to say- if your posture didn't have silk reeling- you did it wrong.
The silk reeling start from

- bottom and up, and
- back to front.

View attachment 29994

The silk reeling then reach to the whole body.

View attachment 29995
Is the spiraling energy from turning the right foot out and left toe in? Is this implied?
 

JowGaWolf

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May be "silk reeling" and "body push/pull limb" are different. Many people may consider moving arm (without moving body) is silk reeling (as showing in your video).

Beginner level training - silk reeling.
Intermediate level training - body push/pull limb.
It probably just depends on the teacher.

The way I learned the circular movement at the beginning of this video is to move the waist and not circle the arm. quote from my teacher "the arm doesn't circle. The arm moves up and down, but it looks like a circle because the waist moves the arm." It take a lot of coordination to make the circle this way but the structure is better and the waist is more powerful so it takes less effort of the arm. Effort in the arm is used to maintain structure. The other benefit is that turning the waist puts the body in position to punch. My brother only uses his arm to throw a hook punch. Now he has shoulder problems. So I told him about using the waist, but didn't get enough time to teach him that before I left his place (we were eating out at that time)
 

mograph

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quote from my teacher "the arm doesn't circle. The arm moves up and down, but it looks like a circle because the waist moves the arm." It take a lot of coordination to make the circle this way but the structure is better and the waist is more powerful so it takes less effort of the arm.
Absolutely. This is the way!
 

marvin8

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Robert Tangora said:
[At 10:50] This is kind of the place where I say, you can do the cross body power stuff and you can do it just purely as bio-mechanics. And its quite effective. Its actually very efficient. And actually I allude to this in the book, but a good example of this if you want to see it, watch the documentary When We Were Kings, which was the Foreman-Ali documentary that was done before the fight in Zaire, and theres a scene where they show Foreman hitting a heavy bag. And its the biggest heavy bag that you can get, something like about 150 pounds. And hes hitting it and hes basically indented it, like it was a basketball or watermelon from just hitting it. And what George Foreman did very well is exactly what cross body power is.
Dan Kleiman
Nov 3, 2011

Robert Tangora explains why Tai Chi Cloud Hands is an elegant paradigm for integrating the internal work of tai chi with the external movement patterns. This is the subject of his upcoming book, "The Internal Structure of Cloud Hands".


George Foreman Hitting the bag with all his power THREE different times.

 
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JowGaWolf

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Dan Kleiman
Nov 3, 2011

Robert Tangora explains why Tai Chi Cloud Hands is an elegant paradigm for integrating the internal work of tai chi with the external movement patterns. This is the subject of his upcoming book, "The Internal Structure of Cloud Hands".


George Foreman Hitting the bag with all his power THREE different times.

That's similar to my conditioning traing on the heavy bag. I only try to use my waist to drive my punch. I do about 15 minutes of this type of training.

I'm looking at the punches and I don't think he was hitting the bag with all his power. The type of punching he does allows him to hit hard without using full power. He has excellent power generation.
 

JowGaWolf

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Because of this emphasis it is feels easy to say that some styles (like Yang style) don't have silk reeling. But I've seen some older Yang style forms which have very obvious silk reeling in them.
Yang style definitely has it in there. When I train it, my arms don't get tired, my core gets tired. But then again. I don't have a good core so that could be why lol.
 

JowGaWolf

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After doing Yang style for over 30 years, it is everywhere in the form if you do it right, just not a obvious as it is in Chen. I've trained both Yang and Chen, just a whole lot more Yang
A lot of people don't do it right because of "Tai Chi for health" which often skips things like that. In short "their reel is broken." Here you can see the disconnect of when the body moves and when the hands move. When the waist stops moving, his hands keep moving.

I was taught that if my hands aren't in the correct position when my waist stops twisting then I'm not in sync. that I messed up somewhere. I was also told that it's better to stop the hands when the body stops, than to continue to push. I think alot of the misconceptions come from not training it as a fighting system. It goes back to the questions "what is the purpose" What am I doing when I do the movements? If you ask "tai chi for health" students about the applications of the movements, many won't know. That pretty much means they are moving just to be moving and not with a purpose of movement. For me it's easier to learn if I know why movements are the way they are. It gives me a better idea of what I'm trying to do with the movement beyond just copying movement.

 

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A lot of people don't do it right because of "Tai Chi for health" which often skips things like that. In short "their reel is broken." Here you can see the disconnect of when the body moves and when the hands move. When the waist stops moving, his hands keep moving.

I was taught that if my hands aren't in the correct position when my waist stops twisting then I'm not in sync. that I messed up somewhere. I was also told that it's better to stop the hands when the body stops, than to continue to push. I think alot of the misconceptions come from not training it as a fighting system. It goes back to the questions "what is the purpose" What am I doing when I do the movements? If you ask "tai chi for health" students about the applications of the movements, many won't know. That pretty much means they are moving just to be moving and not with a purpose of movement. For me it's easier to learn if I know why movements are the way they are. It gives me a better idea of what I'm trying to do with the movement beyond just copying movement.

Not sure what say here, I think you are right about not training properly, but Jake Mace's form is not good, upper and lower are not synced power from root is virtually non-existent. The second video has some good exercises, but again I am not a fan of Jake Mace

Some say power comes from root, is directed by the waist and goes to where it is needed, and IMO it does. Others will tell you the hands, do not move without the gua, hips/groin. And it was that concept that improved my silk reeling in Chen style immensely
 
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