Should instructors compete?

[Andrew Green]

So what is the real reason that instructors should not compete? For those of you who say no. Do you feel that we as instructors have an unfair advantage or???? I would like to know the reason behind your opinion.

For many it is a nothing to gain, lots to loose issue.

If they win, well everyone expected them too.

If they loose, they loose face.

So Why bother?

Should it be that way? No, of course not. But reality and "How it should be" rarely look alike.

In then end it should be up to the individual instructor.

 

[Andy Cap]

There are some very high level forms competitors that don't do much for fighting too.

Very true. There are some people that train for nothing but winning forms competitions by practicing only one form. Once again - this has nothing to do with rank. This is a person doing one thing and only one thing. If a person sets out and learns only one form and perfects that form for competition they will have a hard time convincing Kukkiwon that htey deserve their 4th dan because they know A form.

Competition is sport, perhaps that is not all that you do and that is fine, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a sport. Both tag fighting and forms competition are sport. NHB fighting is sport, and that is essentially what a challenge match would be, or "the kung fu master fight" from the movies

"Competition is sport" is not a fact. That is your opinion. However, even if I were to agree, that does not dissolve the point that these are martial artists we are discussing here. Rank signifies life accomplishments in an art. We are discussing rank, therefore, the art must hold weight.

Now, I am not going to disagree that a lot of what you do has nothing to do with sport, and that is fine. You're the one doing it

But, as soon as you go to a competition it becomes sport, even if just for the day. And this is NOT a bad thing, sport is good, sport is healthy, sport builds character.

In fact not so long ago organized sport was promoted based on providing the same benefits the martial arts marketing machine drills into peoples heads today. Of course Pro wrestling style sportsmanship can quickly get rid of any of that...

I am not certain what your point is here? Are you compairing Tae Kwon Do to the WWE?

Martial arts competitions can showcase some of the worst sportsmanship out there, and this is a result of bad coaching from some, and next to no coaching (in the context of sports competition) from others.

I agree that I have seen some really poor sportmanship at tournaments. Absolutely on this we agree. Once again, that is not a case of bad coaching. That is a case of poor instruction. My students know to win or lose with humility. They are taught this in the dojang, not in between rounds at a match. In fact many of the tournaments I go to actually subtract points for showboating or poor sportmanship. Granted, I do not attend the Olympic sanctioned tourneys because they do tend to be a lot more sport oriented. They tend to attract those folks. like Mr. Green, that approach this all as a sport and train only to win a piece of plastic.

 

[Andy Cap]

For many it is a nothing to gain, lots to loose issue.

If they win, well everyone expected them too.

If they loose, they loose face.

So Why bother?

Should it be that way? No, of course not. But reality and "How it should be" rarely look alike.

In then end it should be up to the individual instructor.

I hold the title of master - for whatever that is worth. If I am concerned about losing face or being defeated, then how could I call myself a warrior?
In the tournaments I go to they break 4th dans and above out into a separate category. the winner will fight for the grand champion trophy, and they don't always win. When they don't win, they learn a great lesson hopefully.
Rank does not equal perfection.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I hold the title of master - for whatever that is worth. If I am concerned about losing face or being defeated, then how could I call myself a warrior?
In the tournaments I go to they break 4th dans and above out into a separate category. the winner will fight for the grand champion trophy, and they don't always win. When they don't win, they learn a great lesson hopefully.
Rank does not equal perfection.

I am not a TKD'er, so please forgive my ignorance.... How do you get a master title? I am impressed - you are in your mid-30's. How is that done?

 

[bignick]

Most of the time's instructor's that 4th dan or higher are referred to as masters

 

[Andy Cap]

I am not a TKD'er, so please forgive my ignorance.... How do you get a master title? I am impressed - you are in your mid-30's. How is that done?

As was stated - 4th dan or higher is given this title. To be perfectly honest, I think the title was create by a 4th dan to promote their school or something. I do not feel like a "master" at all.

My age is a bit deceiving because I started martial arts when I was 7 yrs old. So this year will be my 28th. I am not sure if/when that title should be used, but I feel i am just starting to figure out what it means to be a master, and next I will have to strive for that place.

 

[Andrew Green]

4th dan = master, thats the TKD way

Different goups do rank differently, sometimes VERY differently.

My guess is that it is a marketing thing to some extent. And a very good one at that. General public assumes that 4th dan is better then 2nd, and master is an important title. So let's give those titles to lots of people.

It's not just tkd that has done this, it happens across the board, and it DOES work at promoting the style, which at the end of the day is probably more important then how many stripes are on someones belt.

Now grade inflation gets a lot of criticism, but I don't think they are really justified. Let's suppose you got a brown belt in BJJ, has been training for 7 or 8 years, and you got a 3rd dan black belt in TKD with equivelant training. Now suppose you know very little about styles and ranking standards, who are you more likely to train under?

Ok, now suppose that both occupy the same spot on the "Who is qualified to teach" list. In other words no brown belt in TKD would be teaching. It's not really the standards that shifted, just the colors associated with those standards.

Even within the same art, suppose you study pingu ninpo

school A

requires 1st dan to start teaching.
1st dan takes 7-8 years

School B

requires 3rd dan to start teaching.
2nd dan takes 7-8 years
3rd dan takes 8-10 years

Now when it comes to standards of teachers, who's got the higher standards? Thats right, the place that hands them out quicker. Now let's also call them master at that level, just for fun

Next question, who will get more students in the door? Well, if they do the same marketing and all that other stuff, the person with the higher rank will as it sill be assumed to be better.

And last question, who will retain students LONGER, which is a lot more important then who will promote more to black belt.

My guess would be the ones that promote more often, and enforce that black is not "the" goal, just one. The more that first black means the less their is to keep people after they get it.

Anyways.... bit of a different path then the original topic...

But basically it comes back to the original topic in that it is all about business. And like it or not martial arts clubs are businesses, if the bills don't get paid the training doesn't happen.

So if competing has a chance at hurting an instructors business if it doesn't go well, they're not gonna compete. Of course this has a lot to do with how that business is set up and presented to the students.

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

What place are we supposed to occupy? Bench-warmer?

That's WTF philosophy to ya I guess

 

[Zepp]

I think it's worth mentioning that the rule "4th dan = master" does not apply to all TKD organizations.

 

[Kamaria Annina]

I definitely think instructors should compete. Perhaps not if their school is the one running the tourniment. I had somewhat of a related talk with my instructors today... just because someone is teaching, doesn't mean their training should stop from what they teach their students. I'm a firm believer that even instructors should improve their skills. And competiting is a great way to learn.

 

[Shu2jack]

I do not see any reason why instructors can not compete, are they not students as well as instructors? I really do not see "losing face" as a reason for an instructor not to compete. As an instructor, I have never made myself out to look like a total badass, totally invinsible, undefeatable, and super cool. I can be defeated. Will they think any less of me if I lose? Only if I make myself out to be something I am not. If I am doing my best inside the ring, then my skill and technique will speak for itself, win or lose.

I think it's worth mentioning that the rule "4th dan = master" does not apply to all TKD organizations.

On a side note, the ATA requires someone to be at least a 6th dan in order to earn the title of a Master, and even then you must undergo special training and wait at least a year as a 6th degree before you can earn the title.

More in line with the topic, the ATA considers the roles of a Black belt, a instructor, a school owner, and a Master seperate. Each requires it's own kind of training. This is probably why I feel that instructors should compete. But then again, that is just us.

 

[Jim Tindell]

I love competition, it's one of the many aspects of Taekwondo that I enjoy.

Losing during competition doesn't make the instructors "lose face" at all. Taking a loss with a smile on your face and a handshake will show your students the importance of a good attitude. Things like "courtesy," "integrity," and "perseverence" are what define Taekwondo. Winning shows your "indomitable spirit" and shows your students that their instructor is confident in what they teach.

I loved watching my instructor compete. It was one of the things I looked forward to in tournaments. I wish he would still do that, he's still in perfect shape.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Different Tae Kwon Do organizations use different rules. Not all organizations disallow competition after 4th Dan. In the WTF, though, those below 4th Dan are considered amateurs. They do not have the authority to teach on their own. They do have the right to enter competions.
4th Dans and above are considered professionals, whether they teach or not. They occupy a different level than the lower Dans and have different duties. I think the mentality is that Instructors need to represent Tae Kwon Do with dignity and professionalism. Entering competitions is not part of that. They lead, teach, organize, and work behind the scenes to further the art. They leave competition to the lower belts.