Excerpt from dvd.
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Scissor Lock Escape
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
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Excerpt from dvd.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Ugh. Forum ate my post.
Suffice to say, I would have concerns about the real world application of this technique.
1: If he keeps his hands on the mats like he does, he's vulnerable to a key lock.
2: If he's working so hard to knee the bottom guy in the tail bone, his weight is forward and his base is super narrow making him extremely vulnerable to a sweep.
3: If he puts just one elbow back to the knee to create pressure, he's looking at being triangled.
4: If he tries to swing his leg over, he won't get the bottom guy to roll. If anything, he's looking at one of a few things happening. Best case for him is to get to 50/50 guard, which is the LAST place he wants to be if he's teaching self defense. OR, he'll end up falling back and taking the bottom guy with him, resulting in his now being mounted. OR, he initiates a scramble in which case it's a matter of athleticism and strength to see who ends up on top.
I don't mean to be critical, but seriously. This isn't going to work and it bothers me that people believe otherwise. Even on an untrained person, I don't think this is a practical technique.
Suffice to say, I would have concerns about the real world application of this technique.
1: If he keeps his hands on the mats like he does, he's vulnerable to a key lock.
2: If he's working so hard to knee the bottom guy in the tail bone, his weight is forward and his base is super narrow making him extremely vulnerable to a sweep.
3: If he puts just one elbow back to the knee to create pressure, he's looking at being triangled.
4: If he tries to swing his leg over, he won't get the bottom guy to roll. If anything, he's looking at one of a few things happening. Best case for him is to get to 50/50 guard, which is the LAST place he wants to be if he's teaching self defense. OR, he'll end up falling back and taking the bottom guy with him, resulting in his now being mounted. OR, he initiates a scramble in which case it's a matter of athleticism and strength to see who ends up on top.
I don't mean to be critical, but seriously. This isn't going to work and it bothers me that people believe otherwise. Even on an untrained person, I don't think this is a practical technique.
I think the first three points we can attribute to him narrowing the focus of the demonstration to the guard escape. He wasn't demonstrating a key lock defense, or a triangle defense, or a sweep defense, so he didn't focus on maneuvers specific to those situations. But your fourth point is the one that jumped out to me while I watched this video.
It's hard for me to see how you could get the opponent to roll like that in a dynamic situation. Maybe if he wasn't expecting it you would catch him by surprise, but other than throwing the leg over I don't see him doing anything that actually forces his opponent to roll. It seems like this is going to come down to a test of strength, which isn't where I want to be in a ground fight.
The Elbow Wedge and the Stack and Roll escapes have worked well for me. I'll probably take this in to the school and work it just to see how it goes, but at first blush I don't think I'll be working it in to the repertoire. But we'll see.
It does look like a ninja technique though, doesn't it? Maybe that's just the shoes.
-Rob
It's hard for me to see how you could get the opponent to roll like that in a dynamic situation. Maybe if he wasn't expecting it you would catch him by surprise, but other than throwing the leg over I don't see him doing anything that actually forces his opponent to roll. It seems like this is going to come down to a test of strength, which isn't where I want to be in a ground fight.
The Elbow Wedge and the Stack and Roll escapes have worked well for me. I'll probably take this in to the school and work it just to see how it goes, but at first blush I don't think I'll be working it in to the repertoire. But we'll see.
It does look like a ninja technique though, doesn't it? Maybe that's just the shoes.
-Rob
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Rob,
I hope it's clear that I'm trying to be fair with the vid and not harsh. I see your point regarding the focus of the demonstration. I get that, and instead of nitpicking his technique to death, I tried to focus on parts where the poor technique is so egregious that it would, IMO, almost certainly lead to complete failure of the technique in real life. In other words, while the point wasn't to teach sweep defense, if any one of his students tried the technique as taught, they would surely be swept in seconds. Same with the kimura.
I hope it's clear that I'm trying to be fair with the vid and not harsh. I see your point regarding the focus of the demonstration. I get that, and instead of nitpicking his technique to death, I tried to focus on parts where the poor technique is so egregious that it would, IMO, almost certainly lead to complete failure of the technique in real life. In other words, while the point wasn't to teach sweep defense, if any one of his students tried the technique as taught, they would surely be swept in seconds. Same with the kimura.
Ok. That makes sense. I responded the way I did because I know there are times when I'm demonstrating a specific technique to a student and someone says, "but you'd be wide open for something TOTALLY DIFFERENT in this COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO." But I get what you're saying, even in the scenario he provided, it leaves you open to obvious counter techniques.
For what it's worth, I tried this tonight at the school. I have knee problems stemming from earlier injuries and too much fat in the belly area, and I found it really difficult to lean back over my bent leg while stretching out my straight leg and throwing it over my opponent. I could make the adjustment to my hip, which he does in the video, but I feel like it leaves me in a much more vulnerable, and less mobile, position.
I'm not denigrating Hayes. In fact, I have a lot of respect for him. But I don't think this is going to be a big part of my guard defense. YMMV.
-Rob
For what it's worth, I tried this tonight at the school. I have knee problems stemming from earlier injuries and too much fat in the belly area, and I found it really difficult to lean back over my bent leg while stretching out my straight leg and throwing it over my opponent. I could make the adjustment to my hip, which he does in the video, but I feel like it leaves me in a much more vulnerable, and less mobile, position.
I'm not denigrating Hayes. In fact, I have a lot of respect for him. But I don't think this is going to be a big part of my guard defense. YMMV.
-Rob
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I'm with Steve in my concerns over the technique that Hayes is showing here. My biggest concern is the lack of reality in the set-up to begin with; this again comes across to me as someone (Hayes, in this case) trying to fill gaps without understanding the environment he's attempting to address. Without getting too far into the "skilled attacker versus unskilled attacker" argument, neither is shown in this situation, which leads to unrealistic responces.
Taking the idea (as we do) of the attacker being "unskilled", there are two main ideas that will be encountered on the ground (in a similar position to the one that Hayes finds himself in, in the "guard", so to speak). They are to either a) try to hold you back (stiff-arming) in order to prevent you getting close to choke or strike, which is very easy to handle, or b) they will pull you in in an attempt to control (a little more common, and not as easy to deal with).
Neither of these are what Hayes was showing, but if we take it as the second one, then most of what he does (such as the knee strike in the first place) are simply not going to be there for him. I can see what he's going for, but, uh, no.
Taking the idea (as we do) of the attacker being "unskilled", there are two main ideas that will be encountered on the ground (in a similar position to the one that Hayes finds himself in, in the "guard", so to speak). They are to either a) try to hold you back (stiff-arming) in order to prevent you getting close to choke or strike, which is very easy to handle, or b) they will pull you in in an attempt to control (a little more common, and not as easy to deal with).
Neither of these are what Hayes was showing, but if we take it as the second one, then most of what he does (such as the knee strike in the first place) are simply not going to be there for him. I can see what he's going for, but, uh, no.
JohnEdward
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I have very little MMA knowledge and experience, I have no knowledge or experience in Mr. Hayes art. With that said, based on my martial arts training and experience for over 25 years here are my views. I can support this technique, maybe before 1990 with the emergence of BJJ, but especially within the last 10 years due to MMA. Prior to BJJ/MMA, a scissor lock was not on the street and nil in the martial arts. Because of the development and popularity (I stress popularity) of ground fighting it is something that may need to be dealt with on the street more than before. Of course this is due to the popularity and the high number of people trained and experienced in MMA/BJJ.
The likelihood that if you are caught in a Scissor lock such an escape will be effective only on someone who learned the lock watching UFC or like venue, or poorly trained. It is a whole different animal when someone uses the technique that is experienced and trained in using it. I am a firm believer that experience, and background should back technique. Such a soft presentation lacks the dynamic of the situation being demonstrating. In my view, the escape technique, possible viable as I said before, as demonstrated is more a wrestling move. A benign move confined to college wresting, and ineffective in a street altercation in terminating the fight.
Soft presentation of technique that is out of context lacking the proper preface and context makes me uncomfortable. I find it hard to give any credibility to instruction and instructor. I would take this soft presentation considerable lightly as it is put in a street/self defense context.
I appreciate the effort in the presentation, I just would have liked the presentation within a more proper context. For instance, say when your wrestling with someone here is a wresting/MMA escape that can be effective in the right situation and opponent.
The likelihood that if you are caught in a Scissor lock such an escape will be effective only on someone who learned the lock watching UFC or like venue, or poorly trained. It is a whole different animal when someone uses the technique that is experienced and trained in using it. I am a firm believer that experience, and background should back technique. Such a soft presentation lacks the dynamic of the situation being demonstrating. In my view, the escape technique, possible viable as I said before, as demonstrated is more a wrestling move. A benign move confined to college wresting, and ineffective in a street altercation in terminating the fight.
Soft presentation of technique that is out of context lacking the proper preface and context makes me uncomfortable. I find it hard to give any credibility to instruction and instructor. I would take this soft presentation considerable lightly as it is put in a street/self defense context.
I appreciate the effort in the presentation, I just would have liked the presentation within a more proper context. For instance, say when your wrestling with someone here is a wresting/MMA escape that can be effective in the right situation and opponent.
I think I would also have like to see him practice this in a more dynamic setting. I think it's fine to do a "soft" technique presentation, but you should work it in to a more spontaneous situation right away. If he'd demonstrated the technique, and then followed that with a grappling session where he let his opponent get him in the guard and then executed the technique against a resisting opponent it would have been both more convincing, and more educational. We would have a better idea for how he means this technique to be applied "in media res."
Of course, this is only an excerpt from a longer video sequence. Maybe he does all that on the DVD.
-Rob
Of course, this is only an excerpt from a longer video sequence. Maybe he does all that on the DVD.
-Rob
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
The context Stephen Hayes is aiming for here is street defence, and in that, it is far from ideal. As said, one of the primary ways you find yourself in such a position (in the opponents "guard", what is refered to here as a "scissor lock") is that you both have fallen (perhaps you tried a takedown, and they grabbed hold of you, or you both tripped, or whatever), and the instictive responce from the person underneath is to avoid being injured. As a result, they will unconsciously go for some form of control, which involves holding you in close, and often wrapping the legs around your body. Someone trained will do it in a far more effective way, but the basic idea (gain control from your back) is the same.
The thing is, that if the attacker/opponent is acting realistically, then there isn't the option of doing what Steve is showing in the clip. The knee isn't there, the fallback to roll over with a leg lock isn't there, and even if it is, it's far from the most advisable action either. I'm taking my guys through this exact scenario at present, and what Steve is showing is probably the last thing I'd show them.
The thing is, that if the attacker/opponent is acting realistically, then there isn't the option of doing what Steve is showing in the clip. The knee isn't there, the fallback to roll over with a leg lock isn't there, and even if it is, it's far from the most advisable action either. I'm taking my guys through this exact scenario at present, and what Steve is showing is probably the last thing I'd show them.
I haven't shown my students the technique that is demonstrated in this video, and I don't really intend to. I may discuss it at some point in the context of, "here is something some other guys do," but from top position in the guard I teach the Elbow Wedge and the Stack and Roll first. Those two techniques are high percentage and are easy to flow back and forth between in combination.
-Rob
-Rob
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Ha, what d'ya know, that's pretty much exactly what I'm giving my guys... small wonder, huh?
"this again comes across to me as someone (Hayes, in this case) trying to fill gaps without understanding the environment he's attempting to address."
Chris nails it here. Hayes does have some real skills in his own domain but in this case he apppears to have taken a cursory look at the ground game and decided that he can invent his own solutions. If he spent a little more time working with non-compliant training partners he would probably know better.
Against someone who is skilled in using the guard, the technique won't work and anyway he would be swept or submitted before he got to the point of trying it because his posture and balance are all wrong.
Against someone with no skills the technique might conceivably work on occasion, but there are so many simpler, easier, safer and more reliable moves that I couldn't justify teaching this one.
Back in my Bujinkan days I went to a bunch of seminars with Steve Hayes and I always liked his movement. It feels weird now to watch him demonstrate a technique and feel like I want to shout "No Steve, you're doing it all wrong! Let me give you an introductory lesson so you can know what the heck you're doing."
Chris nails it here. Hayes does have some real skills in his own domain but in this case he apppears to have taken a cursory look at the ground game and decided that he can invent his own solutions. If he spent a little more time working with non-compliant training partners he would probably know better.
Against someone who is skilled in using the guard, the technique won't work and anyway he would be swept or submitted before he got to the point of trying it because his posture and balance are all wrong.
Against someone with no skills the technique might conceivably work on occasion, but there are so many simpler, easier, safer and more reliable moves that I couldn't justify teaching this one.
Back in my Bujinkan days I went to a bunch of seminars with Steve Hayes and I always liked his movement. It feels weird now to watch him demonstrate a technique and feel like I want to shout "No Steve, you're doing it all wrong! Let me give you an introductory lesson so you can know what the heck you're doing."
