Revised Policies: Non-Desirables

Steve

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Bullshido? Isn't that the site that put Ashida Kim out of business?

What's that, you say? He's still operating? Oh no!
Okay guys. I don't want to fall into the position of speaking on behalf of Bullshido. I'm a fan of both sites. I think both serve a legit function within the MA community. I post here WAY more often than I post there, but that doesn't in any way mean I enjoy bullshido any less.

I will suggest that, rather than speculating on why they do anything, to focus on what they've done for the community. Or in other words, focus more on action than intent, because there's no possible way you can know why Phrost does anything, much as he can't know why you do anything. If that makes sense.

What I'm also suggesting is that we (if I can at all speak for MT) act in a way that is consistent. Veiled slights toward the behavior on Bullshido is petty and unnecessary, and has no relevance to what they do.

As for whether they put someone out of business or not, that's the entire point. It's exceedingly difficult to put someone out of business or to pursue any legal recourse. If legal recourse is the only acceptable outcome of an investigation, there would be no public record of most fraudulant school owners. What the investigations on Bullshido accomplish is to create a significant internet presence for the investigation. What I mean is, it would be impossible to avoid finding the Ashida Kim or Coda Scott investigations using any search engine. By recording these investigations online, including a cogent, well written summary, the facts are there for anyone to see. Ultimately, if someone wants to avoid the facts, they can't be helped, but the facts remain in public, easily referenced.

And if their efforts result in legal action, they seem to consider that a well earned victory, but by no means the only positive outcome.

Look guys, I feel like I'm stuck between two good friends here. From where I sit (and type) it appears to me that both sides tend to take a somewhat elitist attitude of the other. I'm going to try and back out of this thread by reiterating that I'm glad that MT is taking the actions it is, and can only suggest that if you're really making a sincere effort to get along, that thinly veiled references to teen angst and sloppy investigation be stricken. While, as you said on BS, that reference doesn't necessarily refer to bullshido, it's pretty hard to take it otherwise.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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The problem with Bullshido investigations, or any for that matter is, they have no authority in the matter. These aren't detectives, cops, or judges, just Joe Citizen. Well meaning in most cases, but in the end, if real damage is to be done to the frauds, eventually the legal beagles need to come into play.

Bullshido isn't the only site out there doing these things. They are the best know in the MartialArts world that I'm aware of though. I've noticed at least a dozen BSdo members signed up the last 2 days. Hopefully to cooperate.

Both sides of the argument have been right and wrong. Neither is perfect, flawless, etc. My invitation to cooperate is an attempt to do just that, cooperate. We don't have to love each other to share data in a meaningful and legal way to make it harder for frauds to operate on either site or in general. I certainly am not asking for a retraction of our award....I asked for a printed copy I could frame. :)

While I've been smacking around a few of the dumber folks over there the last 2 days, I've also been reading through the handful of investigation writeups that were posted. Do they have a list? I'd be happy to mirror that list here (links to those investigations, with official permission to do so) and allow it to be kept updated.

Regarding the amateur sites note, I intend to keep that, however I also intend to offer a recommended resources list that will better indicate who we consider credible.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Bob,

What you mention here is a problem I have with Bullshido. They allow in the past (* I have not been there to browse in a long while *) anyone to raise the question and the sharks to circle the water and someone's business or event is hit hard financially. In the end there may not have been anything bad about the person being acused, but the acusor are still positng members and throwing more under the bus for their financial and personal agendas.

If a club splits up or an organization splits or someone leaves then this gives lots of people the fuel they think they need to destroy someone else.

I am not sure how this can be added into what you already have planned, but it is something that I prefer not to get involved with unless, I am allowed to say, "Meet me here, so we talk about it is person." And not have the other person take as a death threat.

Thanks
Rich,
The problem with alot of these investigations, on any site is just that. Someones competitor gets the ball rolling to harm them professionally. I'm hoping that we can develop some guidelines here that will prevent that sort of stuff.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Just a side note, expect a revision or 3 to this policy to clarify things, add resources and improve communications as we go.
 

Steve

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Final articles are posted on bullshido.org (as opposed to bullshido.net). Here's the direct link to the Matt Morton article: http://www.bullshido.org/Matthew_Morton

I'm not sure if there is a comprehensive list, but the Bullshido wiki at bullshido.org is the place to look.
 

Errant108

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We do have a few lawyers on staff, and have utilized them during certain investigations, especially those involving children, or when the person being investigated has a criminal background. If necessary, information found can be turned over to the actual authorities. Bullshido does not seek vigilante justice.

It is not Bullshido's job to put someone out of business (as much as some Bullies wish it was). The mission of Bullshido is to investigate claims of harmful martial art practices, advocate for aliveness in training, and make this information available to the general public. It is not the job of Consumer Reports to put companies out of business, nor any investigative journalist. Investigation and reporting that information is.

My tenure on Bullshido is part of the reason why I was asked to provide commentary on the Baltimore Samurai case.
 

mwd0818

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Bob,

Just to add, I am also a member over at Bullshido, but don't post there because I see little to no value in it. Perhaps if one of their fraud investigations came in to play in my area, I would contribute first hand knowledge where I could. Otherwise, I find the site generally a nuisance to navigate, read and follow.

As for policies here on fraud-busting, I appreciate that this site just doesn't welcome the interaction - probably not because we wouldn't want to investigate and find out, but that it encourages an interaction that is not conducive to the general growth of the MA community here. I do appreciate the willingness to change some policies however and move forward. Exposing frauds is not the goal of MT, but it can be PART of our discussions. Ashida Kim, Dux, etc. I've always appreciated the professionalism and courtesy here, and any post that keeps that, I think should be welcomed. I've seen a few posts that have been warned or threads locked on here that I didn't necessarily agree with it from the admin side, but thanks for running a clean and professional site. I don't have to agree with everything that is done by the admins here, but I continue to enjoy posting and reading from the wide variety of people that we have contribute here.
 

Omar B

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There's enough space for both to co-exist just fine. It's not as if their fraud busting is ever going to affect me or my instructor. It's a funny site to read, I just don't have the time to join and post there and here.
 

shesulsa

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I still really can't like a site who says they get to define what is and isn't okay in the MA industry outside of blatant, verifiable or admitted fraud. Many more schools are more community-outreach and hobbyist than professional, competitive schools. So unless you fit into the BS-Do box, you're not legit?

Martial arts has done more for many people besides turn them into good fighters or take their money or both.

If we're going to apply the Bullshido mentality to all of life, then only professional potters would throw clay and sell pottery. Only licensed artists would sell paintings, drawings and sculptures. Only certified, verifiable, award-winning leathercrafters would create and sell leather goods. Because there can clearly be NO ****ING WAY anyone could get any ****ING benefit out of pretending they have something to offer by doodling, sketching, making a pinch-pot or 20, painting an image of their favorite landscape or weaving a leather belt. Buy hand-crafted furniture from the guy down the street? How could you? HE DOESN'T RUN AN APPROVED FACTORY!!!!

Martial arts, as all other endeavors, have much more to offer than fighting effectiveness and though this is important, it is just *not* what so very many people come to martial arts for nor what they bring their children to karate klass for.

Nobody likes to admit it, nobody likes to say it, nobody thinks it should be the case. But people - this is America and this is how we do things - we eat at the buffet of what is before us, taking what we like and leaving the rest. Now, if someone is on the market for some serious damn training, then that person should do extensive research and ... AND ... *are you ready for this? I'm so excited ...* THEY ACTUALLY DO THE RESEARCH!!

Anyone wanting to become a professional and who is *serious* will get pointed in the right direction of clubs that will teach them to get into some serious skills-development and sparring practice so they can reach their goals.

There can be no mystery that a large part of the draw for a site like Bullshido *IS* the attitude and the language. "Dirty Laundry," right? Everybody loves it. Momma taught us it was naughty - as was fightin' - so we're gonna seek it out ... until we grow up and find new vocabulary words to adequately express our ideas.

To say that MartialTalk harbors frauds is just wrong. The proof is in the pudding ... but I think only registered members can see that pudding and perhaps it would do MT good to allow all to read that pudding. Some cases which have been decided on Bullshido may not have been completely resolved in real life and hence, if the member is here, we suddenly become the sanctuary of evil. It's really quite juvenile.

Bullshido serves a purpose, it's just pumped up with a lot of ... stuff. Stuff which one has to wade through to get to the real meat of the matter which just too often for me is ... fleeting, hearsay and subject to the judgement of a small group of narrow-minded people. I've seen the result of what such a judiciary panel does to really good art forms and small companies and frankly, I'm not impressed.

I'm glad the policy is changing, however, I still won't reactivate my account with Bullshido on principle and Bob - congratulations on earning their DOM award - I'd display it on the Index Page! :)
 

Archangel M

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All true. But what if a potter/artist were making claims that they were trained in a famous art school, trained under a famous artist, had their work displayed in famous museums and won awards for their work...and it was ALL found to be crap??

And how much worse is it if that artist was making a living teaching art based off of those credentials?
 

Steve

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With respect, Shesulsa, I think you dislike the impression that you have of Bullshido more than of Bullshido as it really exists.

It's lude and baudy and the language is at least PG-13, but the core of Bullshido has no problem with any of the other reasons that people study martial arts. It's when you claim that your art is for self defense or is "effective on the street" that an issue comes up. My 64 year old mom takes Tai Chi and no one here or on Bullshido would say anything bad about that. My mom harbors no delusions about learning self defense skills or to be a street fighter. She's doing it for exercise, to help her balance and her flexibility.

Regarding doing the research, Bullshido exists to make sure that there is information for someone to find. Were there no venue for their investigations or if it were strictly for legal investigations, then that alternative information would not be represented on the internet (where almost everyone "does their research").

Is bullshido for everyone? Of course not. It's like the thunderdome sometimes. But as I said before, there are different forums and the personality of the site changes dramatically from one to the other. There aren't very many shenanigans, for example, in the MABS forum, and they don't suffer fools in the grappling forum, either. Newbietown is a no shark area while YMAS is largely fair game where over half of what's said is tongue in cheek.

Once again, I am not interested in defending Bullshido or anything like that. If you don't like it, that's totally okay by me. But I do think that you should at least dislike it as it really is and not a bad first impression.
 

Gordon Nore

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The problem with Bullshido investigations, or any for that matter is, they have no authority in the matter. These aren't detectives, cops, or judges, just Joe Citizen. Well meaning in most cases, but in the end, if real damage is to be done to the frauds, eventually the legal beagles need to come into play.

QFT. I'm not trashing Bullshido here either. People can get over zealous in their mission to root out fraud. All of a sudden people are being called frauds because their MA practice is unconventional, or maybe they just aren't terribly good at it. Fraud busting can be the veneer that covers for style bashing or rudeness.
 

Errant108

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QFT. I'm not trashing Bullshido here either. People can get over zealous in their mission to root out fraud. All of a sudden people are being called frauds because their MA practice is unconventional, or maybe they just aren't terribly good at it. Fraud busting can be the veneer that covers for style bashing or rudeness.

No one is called a fraud for unconventional training methods.

We have a very VERY precise definition of a fraud. That is someone claiming to be something that they are not for the sake of profit.

Someone who trains in an unconventional manner will be given the opportunity to explain themselves. Let's take Taijiquan for example. We have one poster, a very eloquent gentleman, who has trained Taijiquan with notable instructors as a fighting art. He is capable of explaining AND DEMONSTRATING how Taijiquan works in a fight, be it combat, grappling, or MMA, in a manner that everyone can understand. He has put up videos explaining how movements in the Taiji forms can be removed, drilled, and used in alive training. He has sparred and beaten some of the so-called BJJihad, and earned a great deal of respect on the site.

However, someone who comes on Bullshido and starts explaining how Taijiquan utilizes universal energy, relies on pseudoscientific evidence, and refuses to demonstrate their skill sets AND DEMANDS THAT HIS VIEWS BE RESPECTED will at the least be met with skepticism...and yes, likely be met with derision.

He will not be called a fraud. We do not allow people who are not frauds to be called frauds, as this is a very quick way to a libel lawsuit, and trust me, Bullshido does not want that.

Bullshido has a set standard of beliefs when it comes to training for combat. If you do not claim to be training for combat, then you have nothing to worry about. For example, I love practicing traditional Shorin-ryu kata. I do not claim that merely going through the motions however, is the most constructive or efficient way to develop combative skill. This is an area Maunakumu and I have had discussions on several times, and agree on.

Again, I will completely agree that Bullshido as a forum is not necessarily a place for everyone. I will also agree that some Bullshido members thrive on the ability to act immature and that there is a level of locker room culture in the areas that are not serious forums. That mentality is not tolerated in MABS, the Investigation forum.
 

shesulsa

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All true. But what if a potter/artist were making claims that they were trained in a famous art school, trained under a famous artist, had their work displayed in famous museums and won awards for their work...and it was ALL found to be crap??

And how much worse is it if that artist was making a living teaching art based off of those credentials?

That would be a verifiable fraud ... please see my first paragraph.

With respect, Shesulsa, I think you dislike the impression that you have of Bullshido more than of Bullshido as it really exists.

It's lude and baudy and the language is at least PG-13, but the core of Bullshido has no problem with any of the other reasons that people study martial arts. It's when you claim that your art is for self defense or is "effective on the street" that an issue comes up. My 64 year old mom takes Tai Chi and no one here or on Bullshido would say anything bad about that. My mom harbors no delusions about learning self defense skills or to be a street fighter. She's doing it for exercise, to help her balance and her flexibility.

Regarding doing the research, Bullshido exists to make sure that there is information for someone to find. Were there no venue for their investigations or if it were strictly for legal investigations, then that alternative information would not be represented on the internet (where almost everyone "does their research").

Is bullshido for everyone? Of course not. It's like the thunderdome sometimes. But as I said before, there are different forums and the personality of the site changes dramatically from one to the other. There aren't very many shenanigans, for example, in the MABS forum, and they don't suffer fools in the grappling forum, either. Newbietown is a no shark area while YMAS is largely fair game where over half of what's said is tongue in cheek.

Once again, I am not interested in defending Bullshido or anything like that. If you don't like it, that's totally okay by me. But I do think that you should at least dislike it as it really is and not a bad first impression.

I've read that site on and off for years - and even posted there a few times after having been called "****-salsa." While I respect what you're saying and I did say I believe a purpose is served, it is shrouded in nastiness which is, I'm sorry to say, penis-wagging in the books of many and absolutely *cheapens* the site.

For example - the article by Phrost. Is there a single individual who can say with certainty that the Matt Morton matter is closed? Finished? Resolved? Sounds to me like it is still very much still open. Some facts have been found to be sure ... but I really think a particular angle of the whole story was completely extorted in order to hang Matt in the BS noose. Out of general respect for Matt and because I'm not directly involved, I won't comment on that further. But because he is a member here, Bob is a douchebag. Come on, folks. We don't really need a rocket science doctorate here, do we?

So ... What about people who are flat-out lied to? Do they become frauds by default? And just how high are we supposed to hang THEM in their shock and awe that their instructor lied to them? Sorry, but it reeks of McCarthyism and while it's very important to investigate and question people who make certain claims, most of the rest is not necessary to say the *very* least and harmful to say the worst.
 

Errant108

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I've read that site on and off for years - and even posted there a few times after having been called "****-salsa."

Hey, at least they didn't point out that, Hwarangdo aside, most Koreans would associate your screen name with their term for diahrea.
 

shesulsa

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Hey, at least they didn't point out that, Hwarangdo aside, most Koreans would associate your screen name with their term for diahrea.

It depends on the pronunciation, now doesn't it? And how is calling me ****-Salsa NOT pointing it out?

Sulsa pronounced with the schwa sound for the "u" would be diarrhea. Sool-Sa would be "technician." Mkay?
 

Rich Parsons

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With respect, Shesulsa, I think you dislike the impression that you have of Bullshido more than of Bullshido as it really exists.

It's lude and baudy and the language is at least PG-13, but the core of Bullshido has no problem with any of the other reasons that people study martial arts. It's when you claim that your art is for self defense or is "effective on the street" that an issue comes up. My 64 year old mom takes Tai Chi and no one here or on Bullshido would say anything bad about that. My mom harbors no delusions about learning self defense skills or to be a street fighter. She's doing it for exercise, to help her balance and her flexibility.

Regarding doing the research, Bullshido exists to make sure that there is information for someone to find. Were there no venue for their investigations or if it were strictly for legal investigations, then that alternative information would not be represented on the internet (where almost everyone "does their research").

Is bullshido for everyone? Of course not. It's like the thunderdome sometimes. But as I said before, there are different forums and the personality of the site changes dramatically from one to the other. There aren't very many shenanigans, for example, in the MABS forum, and they don't suffer fools in the grappling forum, either. Newbietown is a no shark area while YMAS is largely fair game where over half of what's said is tongue in cheek.

Once again, I am not interested in defending Bullshido or anything like that. If you don't like it, that's totally okay by me. But I do think that you should at least dislike it as it really is and not a bad first impression.


Steve,

I like you presenting this information, and I would not like to cause any negative backlash to your "Steveness", but I will present my concerns.

In the beginning if you did not "roll" you were crap.

If you were no the military weight charts with 2 to 4 % body fat then you were crap.

Then it moved to if someone vouched for you then you were ok.

Then it turned into the Shark infested scum pound. Where newbies were attacked for being newbies , unless vouched for by a long time member.

** I pretty much stopped browsing at that point except to spot hit the stie from time to time.


Maybe the site has grown and has some good content now. But I did not like the taste not how it was run. It was ok for long time people to issue challenges, but not for low on post count people.

And to address a comment about "long Time posters" here with a bad attitude, I would have to say yes you can find posts from me on this site. Many of those rules were put in place because those events or events similar to them by others.

I have never said that Bullshido does not serve a purpose or should go away. But I ahve said I do not like it, and many of the people on the site. Maybe this has changed. As with any Brand Name Image once a person gets a bad taste in their mouth it takes a lot of work and positive press for the person to even think about let alone try that Brand Name Again.

Thanks for sharing.
 

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