Responsibility to Society.

[Flatlander]

I would like to hear people's thoughts on how they feel about an instructor's responsibility to society, in the context of choosing who they will or will not train. I believe that there are people out there, youth or adult, who should not be allowed Martial training. I speak of people who have a history of criminal activity, bullying, sexual predators, etc. Thoughts?

 

[Kenpo Mama]

I believe an instructor has the right to deny training to anyone that he/she thinks will use martial arts in a negative way. I know that this may be subjective based upon individual intuition, but imagine how an instructor would feel if he/she learned that one of his/her students killed or maimed another individual. If that instructor had the slightest sense that this student would behave in such a manner, then they have not done their duty to society.

Donna :asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

I agree, instructors do have the right to withold training to anyone who may potentially use their knowledge to hurt others in a manner not consistent with (general) MA's philosophy.
Soo, how is an instructor going to know who's going to do what?
How is that instructor going to know the little kid he trained isn't going to grow up and be the class bully when he gets his brown/black belt as a teenager?
How does the instructor know that the guy who got out of prison two years ago isn't a reformed and turned honest guy? (yeah it can happen)...
How does the instuctor know that the student, a basically good person doesn't in a moment's panic or rage use their skills and kills another person?

Obviously the instructor can't predict that...not without accuracy anyway.
I mean the guy walking in and he's 6'-5", 275 lbs, lots of tattoos and piercings wanting to learn kenpo or tkd ... you can't train that guy now can ya? I mean... geez what if he kills someone... :xtrmshock
I guess the mousy little lady in the corner could benefit better... yeah lets train her instead.

Instructors can't know. Only their experience and intution can help them along in choosing a good candidate for training. Just as firearm instructors can't know or predict who will use their knowledge for bad things.
The instructors do have a responsibility ... and that is to make sure their students realize their responsibility when they're learning. :asian:

 

[Ender]

What I've seem to notice is that many students tend to reflect the instructor. Intense instructors seem to have more intense students, while more congenial instructors have that type of students. I watched a karate class at the local community center and noticed the young students had to recite a pledge:

"I will obey my parents
I will listen to my teachers
I will always try my best
And I will never misue my karate"

I thought that was an interesting addition.

Having said that, there really isn't anyway to tell , IN THE SHORT TERM, if a student will use their training outside of the dojo in a unlawful or detrimental manner. In the long term, I think students will reveal themselves and their character. But even then, there is no crystal ball.

 

[Flatlander]

Yes, you're right, there is no way to really know on the outset. But I think that if it comes to light that a student is doing "bad things", then a responsible instructor should refuse them training. I guess I would just like to see a world where the majority of people with training and skills are all "good guys". Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

 

[TigerWoman]

I think an instructor most definitely does have a responsibility to society to not let loose those troublemakers who cannot control themselves. He/she can try to reach those who bully, pick fights, train to misuse martial arts but at some point in that training, when that person is not responding, he/she has an obligation to expell that student, hopefully sooner than later.

My daughter, at age 9 joined TKD more for defense against a bully, although she never used it in defense. This same bully, years later joined TKD and I had to inform the master of the incidents with my daughter. Well, he kept him in anyway. Later, my son, on the bus, witnessed a fight on the street with this same bully and he was using TKD kicks. So, again we informed the instructor and he didn't expell him. About a year later, I learned this kid was no longer going - mostly because he was a lazy kid too. In my opinion, this could have been averted but wasn't. And my daughter, could have gotten in some good kicks back, as a red belt, but didn't.

I saw a teenager kid, who was really talented in TKD get to 1st Dan. But he had and continues to have a temper problem. TKD/BB is not just about physical ability, it is equally about having mental maturation. I don't think many teenagers have that and some people never seem to acquire those skills.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I disagree with the notion that an Instructor cannot know whether his student will misbehave. I think a good Instructor absolutely can tell how his students will act and what kind of people they are. This is what separates true Instructors from average Instructors.
Once you have learned to watch eyes, you can tell almost instinctively what kind of student someone is. Eyes are the window to the soul and they don't lie. Someone may lie verbally, and they may lie through body language, but they cannot lie with their eyes. Eyes will tell you whether a student is actually trying, will go far in Tae Kwon Do, or will never be successful. They can also tell you what kind of a heart someone has-whether they would never misuse Tae Kwon Do or have an ugly mind.
Second, I have been told that a good Instructor can tell how far someone will go in Tae Kwon Do-whether they will make green belt, 1st Dan Black, or Grandmaster Instructor.
But many of these concepts go against students who have been raised in Americanized martial arts. They think it cannot be done because it seems impossible. But it can be done.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Interesting thoughts...I find something in all of them.

I think an instructor should have a certain responsibility as a role model in society. However the problem starts at the level of instructor/school owner - who's to say the instructor has integrity to begin with? Remember the bad guy instructor from the movie Karate Kid? An exaggeration possibly, but never the less, there must be some who conduct themselves in this type of manner. Unfortunately there is no governing body that says that you can be an instructor because of the virtues you display, and that you can not because of the virtues you are lacking in. In a perfect world people would have to apply for a license to open a school. Like that of doctors and lawyers, teachers etc., there would be review boards to review their conduct. There's always the Better Business Bureau, but how many people checked that out before signing up for lessons? Obviously if you don't like what you experience in a school you can leave, but a negative instructor can have a negative impact on an impressionable student, especially if the student is young. Just as I agree a very intense instructor can possibly yield more intense students.

Now assuming the instructor is a person of integrity, I don't believe that they can predict the possible future misuse of skills in a young student. In fact, if an instructor truly has integrity they can impact a child in a most positive way as to possibly change their future paths for the betterment of society. Children can learn the control and discipline through their martial studies necessary for them to avoid conflict.

Assuming still that we have an instructor with integrity, I think it is slightly different with adult students. I think there can be signs about a person's ill intent, and to me these don't necessarily include tattoos and piercings. It's more behavioral stuff. I think you can get a gut feeling about a person - a negative vibe so to speak. Also, if a person comes in asking the wrong questions...like for instance - How can I use this to kill someone? (that might be a sign ) If they are studying and the instructor observes them behaving negatively and violently towards others in class, or if an instructor has personal knowledge of the person having a history of violent behavior outside of class, than in cases like this I think the instructor has responsibility to society to act on the feelings and deny training.:asian:

 

[lonecoyote]

But don't any of you believe that martial arts have the power to change people? Maybe young people who have bad character traits need martial arts even more than others, because the discipline, self esteem and confidence can straighten them out. I'm not saying that one can help everybody but I believe people can change, not always though, and martial arts can be a vehicle to help them become better people.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

But don't any of you believe that martial arts have the power to change people? Maybe young people who have bad character traits need martial arts even more than others, because the discipline, self esteem and confidence can straighten them out. I'm not saying that one can help everybody but I believe people can change, not always though, and martial arts can be a vehicle to help them become better people.

Yes that was one of my points...I agree!

 

[OUMoose]

But don't any of you believe that martial arts have the power to change people? Maybe young people who have bad character traits need martial arts even more than others, because the discipline, self esteem and confidence can straighten them out. I'm not saying that one can help everybody but I believe people can change, not always though, and martial arts can be a vehicle to help them become better people.

In a utopian world, it would be the case, yes. I can say personally, MA's helped me with my self-esteem, and hope others can share in that feeling. Unfortunately, many just come looking for a scrap, or to show how "this karate crap don't work for nuthin". Those people there's no help for, until they find the boost that their egos are so sorely looking for.

Forgive me if I sound elitist or somehow better than anyone else, as it's not my intention. Just a pet peeve with some people that I've seen come into schools. :asian:

 

[OC Kid]

I think that while we are not mind readers or pschologist the indicators are there. When I take a new student ( i only teach kids right now) I let them know that karate is for defense only. In all of my test I asked the question What is self defense? There is no correct answer its only the students perception.
One of the indicators is how a student interacts with others, doe he/she fight with the other students? lose his/her temper during sparring/self defense practice. A know it all in class? The indicators are there.
I also dont teach things other than normal self defense techniques until the student has been with me a while. no joint stomps , eye gouges and the like until I know whats up with them.
Most kids in my class know each other from school so I interact with the kids and usually get the straight skinny on them.

I did have one student who was not a very dedicated student. Then he told me he got in a fight at school. According to him it wasnt his fault though his story had quite a few holes in it. Then I used that to make him more dedicated to the class and he started showing up more regularly and not goofing off in the class or being disruptive.

Then he got into another fight after talking to him about it and asking more questions and everytime he answered a question I would ask why did he do that and after about 5 questions it appeared he started it. Well i realized then that he was turning his new found "confidence" into being a bully and smart alec to other kids pushing theior buttons. i talked to him about it and his Aunt, who picked him up and dropped him off for class (never stayed to watch another indicator).
Eventually I asked him to leave the class because he lied to me about somethings. He of course was sad a played the victem even though I explained to him that dropping him for lieing was the best life lesson I could teach him. He never took responsibility for his actions which his something He learned from his Mom(single parent).

All We can do is the best we can do. I tell my students no one is perfect, only God dont make mistakes.

We can be examples.
Always be straight fwd with are students, If we dont how can we expect them to.
Hold them to the rules of the dojo. we have to make them responsible.
Be compassionate, If we are not how can they learn to be?
Be non agressive in our own lifes. since most of my students live in mmy neighborhood they have seen me walk away from confrontations ( on the soccer field most of my students are on my boys soccer team and some parents and coaches get very emotional ) before and I use it as a lesson or teaching moment.
I use a code in my school. just about every class
I tell the kids like this:

karate means empty hand

karate-do means the way of the empty hand

karate is a martial art

martial art means it is a war art as martial means war.

We are studying to be warriors

warriors live by the bushido code. Bushido means way of the warrior.
the bushido code is broken down into 5 elements (I made them up BTW)

Honor
Humility
Discipline
Courage
The pursuit of wisdom.

Then I give new examples every class of each of the 5 areas.
Well thats how I do things anyway.

 

[Trent]

I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here a bit. Society is an abstract concept; it doesn't actually exist except in the minds of those involved, and only to those who wish to participate. There is little doubt that your idea of what a responsible person in society would do is different than mine.

How about the art is mine once it is given to me to dispense as I please and help who I wish? How do you know what a person is going to do with the art unless they make their intentions clear through announcement or an apparent pattern of past behavior with no intention of reform?

The really difficult part is assisting those who sorely need it, and they are often exactly the people who give others problems. Also, occasionally, society itself is the problem.

Each person is an individual who will have to determine for themselves their own moral compass and what their life will mean to them.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Very good point. There is a difference between an aggressive child who may be able to benefit from martial arts practice and sublimate his energy positively, and an adult who may be practicing because he wants revenge on the people who beat him up earlier. It is the Instructor's job to weed out the truly malicious from the merely misguided.
For instance, a friend of mine who I have mentioned before believes in practicing Tae Kwon Do solely to be able to inflict pain on others. For years I thought I was the only one who saw this and wondered why others did not as well. Turns out our Instructor knew full well about his attitude problem and had warned him about that on many occasions. Our instructor is famous for knowing things and understanding people in ways we thought he did not know.
Sort of like my wife. She knows immediately when something is wrong in my life despite my best attempts to hide it.

 

[pete]

Martial Arts instructors are there to teach the martial arts, period. they are not necessarily role models (think Charles Barkley). Yes, i am a father of 2 children who have been in the martial arts and do like to see the right values put forth, as i would with a basketball coach, ballet teacher, or dentist for that matter. But the ultimate responsibility of teaching my son and daughter right from wrong belongs to my wife and myself.

Most of the qualities we look for, and look to avoid, are extremely subjective, and being so, there can never be an effective oversight group or licensing body to enforce what "we" want... simply because someone else may be looking for just that quality "we" look to avoid.

Besides, in this day and age, a "kid" of any age doesn't need martial arts to become dangerous.. that's just naive.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Pete,

I agree with you. Kids need to learn values from their parents.

As a few of you also pointed out, there is no regulatory body to license instructors. If you have a black belt you can hang out a shingle. And there are plenty who do.

Also, just because you're good at a martial art doesn't mean you'll be a good teacher. I teach kids also, OC Kid, and I find that I am very careful as to how I critique what they are doing - I offer lots of "great", "you are a good kicker", "I really like the way you do your form" - and try to smile and have fun with them, espcially the little ones. I had an instructor once who designed a drill for the kids which was extremely difficult - involved balancing on one leg while trying to keep a stack of pads steady on the bent leg. When he saw I was aiding them in getting a feel for what they should be doing eventually by supporting their arms or legs, he pulled me aside and told me "The point is that they are SUPPOSED to fail." I don't agree with that - kids need positive reinforcement and love in everything they do.:karate:

 

[KenpoTess]

I would like to hear people's thoughts on how they feel about an instructor's responsibility to society, in the context of choosing who they will or will not train. I believe that there are people out there, youth or adult, who should not be allowed Martial training. I speak of people who have a history of criminal activity, bullying, sexual predators, etc. Thoughts?

Oh what a perfect world we as instructor's would have if we could investigate our potential student's backgrounds as they can ours~!

I think we have the right to oust someone if they are found out to be using an Art to harm someone or to sully the organization/schools reputation or name.
(one of our curriculum's patch descriptions states -
(bottom) forms the shape of an ax - it represents the
executioner. In the event a member is influenced by evil ideas and
thoughts contrary to our philosophy, of the (IKKO) he/she is cut off never
to train with us again.

I believe we have a responsibilty to the public and ourselves to be watchful and mindful of all student's behavior outside the studio environment. We are lucky that we have such a tight knit older group and do socialize and the rumor mill always ends up back to us. We also keep in touch with the younger student's parents, if something is going on in the kids lives, school fights etc, we join forces with the Parents and deal with it before it gets out of hand. We've had to send people on their way with a :btg: one in particular who was harmful to other students and in our minds not someone we wanted to have in our school.

:asian:

~Tess

 

[Phoenix44]

Obviously the instructor can't predict that...not without accuracy anyway.
I mean the guy walking in and he's 6'-5", 275 lbs, lots of tattoos and piercings wanting to learn kenpo or tkd ... you can't train that guy now can ya? I mean... geez what if he kills someone...

Yeah.

I think that IS my instructor.

 

[Phoenix44]

True story:

I went to the annual meeting of the National Assoc of Professional Martial Artists (NAPMA) two years ago. One of the keynote speakers runs a very successful dojo and has created some popular kids' MA programs. She related a story about driving up to her school one day a few years ago to find it swarming with federal agents. Inadvertantly, her school had trained one of the 9/11 hijackers.

How do you think she felt?

 

[shesulsa]

We will suspend younger students for using martial arts in an inappropriate manner (when we hear about it). Depending upon the situation and the person, we might give them a second chance. If a pattern is noticed among the student's behavior in class, reports from home and school and society, we will expel the student.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an expulsion registry? Oh yeah, then my Hwarang Do teacher would be on it....:lol: