Rank

[Cthulhu]

Our club doesn't use ranks, but if we did, I believe my rank would be 'Whipping Boy', or maybe, 'One in Constant Agony'.

Cthulhu

 

[moromoro]

this subject truly makes me sick....
in traditional FMA there is no RANK. the master would simply say ok you are now an eskrimador..
if a system has several levels of rank it is all right but what iam amazed by is how some systems have grades up to 10degree (or lakan which in tagalog means level).... to me this is a marketing ploy and the idea is to keep this hidden from the student as much as posible......HOW THE F*CK CAN YOU HAVE THESE RANKINGS IN ESKRIMA....

I FEEL VERY SORRY FOR STUDENTS TO BE LURED IN TO THESE ORGANISATIONS...

as i have stated in another forum i am very blessed to be a personal student of two Great grandmasters these grandmasters (GM navarro and GM abrian) dont charge for their teaching i mean they dont have a set price and they teach for as long as you want.

MY WEBSITE SHOULD BE UP LATER THIS YEAR


thanks

terry

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by moromoro
this subject truly makes me sick....
in traditional FMA there is no RANK. the master would simply say ok you are now an eskrimador..
if a system has several levels of rank it is all right but what iam amazed by is how some systems have grades up to 10degree (or lakan which in tagalog means level).... to me this is a marketing ploy and the idea is to keep this hidden from the student as much as posible......HOW THE F*CK CAN YOU HAVE THESE RANKINGS IN ESKRIMA....

I FEEL VERY SORRY FOR STUDENTS TO BE LURED IN TO THESE ORGANISATIONS...

as i have stated in another forum i am very blessed to be a personal student of two Great grandmasters these grandmasters (GM navarro and GM abrian) dont charge for their teaching i mean they dont have a set price and they teach for as long as you want.

MY WEBSITE SHOULD BE UP LATER THIS YEAR


thanks

terry

Terry,

I understand your point, yet, many of the other arts started with no belts or belt system and has adopted them. Even those that are considered traditional arts.

In one art I study there is Rank, in the other the only ranks are Instructor and Student.

I do not think it is right to condemn the students if the only system they have exposure to is one with ranks.

Maybe you should ask why did the belts arrive in the first place?

Maybe because people were studying for a while picking up a few moves and then going out and saying they were a master. Now if they only use theri own name this might be fine, yet if they use the Instructors name or system then now he looks bad. Maybe the ranks were created to show a record of improvement to avoid this type of issue?

Or Maybe someone just thought they could market it and make money just like everyone else and charge for rank and tests.

Many things could have caused this belt ranking to merge with the FMA's, including how the Japanese and Korean Arts are / were so popular in the large cities. (* Note this does not take away from the vast amounts of knowledge from the old Manong's who taught privately or . . . *)


So, just because somethign differs from your art or background, does not mean it is bad just different. It could be either good or bad.

You say Lakan means Level, what does Dayang mean?

:asian:

 

[bart]

HOW THE F*CK CAN YOU HAVE THESE RANKINGS IN ESKRIMA

Interestingly vehement....


Rank is not such a bad thing. One good thing about ranking systems is that the curriculum is broken down into small, digestable, masterable pieces so as to facilitate learning. Another is the establishment of several long term and short term goals to produce encourage the student to learn and provide a rewarding experience.

One thing about the Filipino people is that they are very pragmatic and ingenious. Some of the FMA masters saw the value in ranking and brought it into their systems for those reasons and others as well. There is of course the chance for abuse of any system, and sometimes this occurs, but it does not invalidate all rank.

Some teachers may want to keep information away from students and they may use rank to do so. But for the most part, the ranking system allows students to get information when they have learned enough to be ready for it. Many students want to learn too much too fast. They want to get flashy before they get the basics and before they get enough seasoning and conditioning to truly understand what they are learning. Rank when done correctly keeps students within a curriculum and keeps the learning rewarding and enjoyable.

in traditional FMA there is no RANK

Also in traditional Japanese arts there was no rank. The same goes for Chinese and Korean arts as well. But as the arts developed systems of ranks evolved mostly to facilitate learning especially in the West.

It would be wise to note as well that in the past schoolchildren were also given no rank and 5 year olds learned right next to 16 year olds in the same school room. But that proved to be inefficient and grades evolved and were formalized. This facilitated learning and gave the students incentive and reward for passing. This stratification allowed students to learn alongside people who were at the same level. It also allowed teachers to focus their teaching at a level that was conducive to learning within the group being taught.

Rank can and does exist in FMA for the same reasons. It would be wise too to examine your statements and see how much respect they give to FMA masters that created the ranking systems for their arts and value them.

 

[moromoro]

there are many good point that you guys have raised
rank in my eyes can be seen as an influence by the japanese systems.....which where and still are very popular in the philippines......

it is also and i believe the primary reason for thier use is so a club can go commercial and open its doors to a greater number of students.....
many commercialised grandmasters must have had a hard time teaching to a larger level of students, what would only take them 4-10years or less to teach privately with rank may now take them 20years and theres still no guarantee that the student will reach the highest rank.........
it is important to remember many of the living grandmasters from the philippines today where never ranked,

some still teach in this way...(those of us who are lucky to be students of such teachers are i belive to be very blessed)

while others who are commercial and teach in dojos have had to add a ranking structure...

it is also very important to note that in the past in the philippines there was no rank given in eskrima..............

rank or no ranks the end result is hopefully the same, only one will take much much longer that others


to rich
dayang in maguindanao which is a moro dialect of mindanao means "maiden".......


thanks

terry

terry

 

[Wingman]

iam amazed by is how some systems have grades up to 10degree (or lakan which in tagalog means level)....

Lakan means "prince" in Tagalog not Level. FYI

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by moromoro
this subject truly makes me sick....
in traditional FMA there is no RANK. the master would simply say ok you are now an eskrimador..
if a system has several levels of rank it is all right but what iam amazed by is how some systems have grades up to 10degree (or lakan which in tagalog means level).... to me this is a marketing ploy and the idea is to keep this hidden from the student as much as posible......HOW THE F*CK CAN YOU HAVE THESE RANKINGS IN ESKRIMA....

I FEEL VERY SORRY FOR STUDENTS TO BE LURED IN TO THESE ORGANISATIONS...

as i have stated in another forum i am very blessed to be a personal student of two Great grandmasters these grandmasters (GM navarro and GM abrian) dont charge for their teaching i mean they dont have a set price and they teach for as long as you want.

MY WEBSITE SHOULD BE UP LATER THIS YEAR


thanks

terry

Belts are seen as goals for students.....it may not be the right reason for training but it works :asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Wingman
Lakan means "prince" in Tagalog not Level. FYI

Wingman I have also seen it translated to Warrior.

Just curious, is it possible that some words just do not translate and others translate based upon the knowledge of the person doing the job?

It is very confusing for us who do not speak the laanguages or dialects of the PI to get a 'True' meaning for anything. So, we listen to our instructors, many of them Filipino and take what they give us and believe them.

Is this bad?

 

[arnisador]

I've also seen--here on MartialTalk, in fact--it translated as simply 'male'.

 

[Wingman]

Hi Rich,

It is difficult to get the exact translation from one language to another. The same word can have different meanings depending on how it is used. Lakan can also mean "warrior" because a lakan (prince) is the successor of the "datu". In the olden times, the datu is chosen for his courage, bravery and martial skill. Lakans are expected to be brave warriors because they will one day succeed the datu. They are expected to lead the tribe especially in battle. Arnisador is also correct. A lakan (prince) is of course a male.

 

[mastervincegonzales]

Any Pekiti Tersia people out there?


I think it is equivalent to master.

Tuhon Bill McGrath

Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje

Just a thought from my observation.

I would like to here a confirmation or denial.

Good Question Kirk

Rich

Taken directly from the Texas Kali Website (An organization that is overseen by Tuhon Erwin Ballarta and Tuhon Leslie Buck)

Master Instructor Ranks


Mandala Maginoo - Maginoo translates as lordship or elder and refers to the wealth of accomplishment one has after successfully planting rice and building a large territory or domain for himself. This is someone who is a senior in the art and higher in the hierarchy.

Mandala Tuhon – Tuhon, also known as taluhoron in Illongo, means your honor or your majesty and refers to a great leader or king who rules a very large domain. In kali it refers to a grandmaster.

Grand Tuhon – this is the title for the highest level in the art and the chief leader of the kali system. It is not only grandmaster, but it is the supreme grandmaster who carries the highest knowledge and true lineage of the art.


Ranking in the Pekiti Tirsia System of Kali is not based on the number of years alone; instead, it is based on understanding and skill in the art, loyalty to its lineage as well as contribution and dedication to its growth and cultivation. Ranking is measured considering the totality of these elements and not by one alone.

Ranking

So in reality, the Rank or Title of Tuhon in PTK is equivalent to that of a Grandmaster. The first level Master is actually the Mandala (Maginoo) Level. I have been training in PTK for almost 7 years now and teaching for almost 5 (I had 2 years of prior FMA training in various systems to include Cacoy Doce Pares, Sayas-Lastra Arnis, and Original Giron Escrima.)

There is a huge overhaul being conducted at the moment now within the organization. I won't post or discuss publically, but it is pretty much the same thing that happens with most FMA systems. I still love PTK above the rest as it proved effective under duress and useful in real-word applications during my time overseas serving in the US Navy.