Question About Strength Training

[Stimpy]

Hi all, I'm new here and new to Muay Thai as well, I just got into it after watching Ong Bak and then some Buakaw fights on youtube ;D

I read somewhere that Buakaws training involves no weight lifting whatsoever, and it looks like alot of MT fighters don't lift weights either. Is there some reason for this that I'm missing? Why wouldn't it benefit these fighters to have more power behind their strikes? I know they can still hit hard, but they don't hit nearly as hard as the bigger guys. I've seen Buakaw land some roundhouse kicks to the head that would be easy KO's if he would just get in the gym and do some squats, but instead the round goes on and Buakaw usually ends up winning by decision.

Then I see guys like Cro Cop who obviously do strength training, and it clearly pays off for them because when Cro Cop lands that left roundhouse to the side of your head, even if he doesn't hit you dead on, you are NOT getting up from that. Buakaw has just as much exploseviness, speed, flexibility, and skill as Cro Cop, or so it seems, but he doesn't have the same power, and so his fights almost always go the full length.

Any insights?

 

[thaistyle]

The Thai people are naturally small framed people and the fighters don't really believe much in building bulk muscle on their frame. In muay thai you can have extreme power without a lot of bulky muscle. But there is another side to this also. Guys like Cro Cop, Micheal McDonald and the late Andy Hug had very well developed physiques with larger muscles and they have done very well for themselves. In Thailand, there aren't many guys in the larger weight classes. Most are middleweight and below. The retired fighter Gan Yao who trains at Faitex USA, retired early due to his size (about 6'1" and weighed over 200lbs). He was huge by Thai standards and he had trouble finding opponents. In my experience and this just my opinion, Muay thai fighters perform better when they have a lean muscular build, with power, and not the bodybuilder's bulk. This does not mean don't lift weights, just focus on using higher reps (15-20) in your routine and using certain exercises like plyos, sprints, etc. to help build power. You also need to find what works for you. If you can be big and functional that's great. I always performed better when I weighed around 195-205lbs and I'm 6'0".

 

[intargc]

it's actually kind of a shame... you can train for power and totally not gain size. Size is dependant upon your diet, not necessarily how much weight you lift. Not to mention genetics. You're not going to get any bigger than you're genetically capable of getting.

Take me for instance, I used to weigh at around 130 lbs. I wanted to bulk up, so I started weight training. My numbers went up as far as how much I was lifting. I started benching at a measily 95 lbs, could barely do a single chin-up and as for squat's, well... Try 80 lbs. So, I worked out a lot but didn't gain any size. I was able to squat 135 lbs after a few months, my bench went up to 115 and I could finally do a few chin-ups.

I looked at my diet, started eating more calories and all the sudden, my body started to grow. My arms which were once 12.5" were now 15", my lats started to flare and my legs grew to about 22". I'm currently comfortable with my physique and so I decided to taper off so many calories.... My body stopped growing as much and yet my numbers still rise in the gym.

Now, I can squat 300, I bench around 200, I can Deadlift 300, and I'm doing Chin-up's with 30 lbs hanging from my waist! However, with my calorie intake at maintenance, my size isn't an issue. However, my power is increasing constantly.

It's just such a HUGE misconception that if you lift "heavy" you'll get "bulky". It's just not true and has been proven time and time again to not be true. My girlfriend is 5'1 and weighs around 105 lbs. She leg presses 250 lbs easily, deadlifts 120 lbs and follows the exact same routine I do. Been doing it for years... She has yet to get "bulky" but she has gotten exceptionally strong. She's probably gained a total of 2 lbs in the time she started training with me. Her strength is incredible for her size, but it wasn't always like that either.

I think the fighters that are a bit more educated on this "bulk" thing and actually get in the gym and lift weights and eat right will easily be able to overpower any fighter of their same skill level.

 

[Stimpy]

interestin point intargc, and somewhat encouraging for me since I just started lifting and am around the same place you were

 

[savior]

If you are talking about FORCE of a punch, mass is directly related to force (Force= mass * acceleration). Therefore, the bigger you are, the more ABILITY you have to strike harder. However, if you are just big and not quick qith your punches, your force dramatically decreases.

For exmaple, those who are VERY BIG (Bob Sapp) have a hard time developing the acceleration needed to be deemed "Quick". Their lack of acceleration is due to the fact that their muscle restricts their flexibility and swiftness.

Therefore, by having a good balance between muscle mass and your acceleration of strikes, you will be just as powerful as a top fighter with half the body mass.

 

[Truong]

I used to try to bulk up also but that was before I was training in MT, I am a pretty small guy since im southeastern asian...Im only about 5'7 155 (naturally) but as of right now I am 140 lbs...After about a few month of weight training i was about 162 lbs...my arms went from 13 in to 15 in...chest went from 29in to 34in...but I noticed my stamina was low and I started getting very lazy..but after I started training MT I decided to stop trying to get bulky dropped all the supplements and just started running alot, eating on a diet (mainly vietnamese & thai foods), and of course rounds and rounds on thai pads and banana bags..i've dropped to 140 lbs..still retain 90% of the muscle I had aquired and am alot faster and the stamina is way up now..If i didn't have that little muscle mass increase from 13in to 15in I believe my punches would be significantly weaker (just my belief), technique is important but a little muscle to back it up wouldn't hurt either..so right now im still lifting, just lower weight and higher reps to get the burn in...working mostly the important muscles such as triceps, back, neck, calfs, thighs..mainly the ones I will be using alot...but always remember you have to also work the other muscles too to balance it all out!

 

[King]

Wow, great post by intargc and savior. I just want to throw my lot in with that muscle and bulk does not always equals hitting power. When I watch amature fights I'm always impressed by the big buff guys. But I quickly lose interest when I see their punches just whiffle by. As someone else pointed before, the key is finding the balance between weight training and calisthenics.

 

[thaistyle]

I will have to agree with King. More muscle doesn't always mean more power. For some (including myself), too much bulk tends to make the fighter sluggish and slow. I have weighed anywhere from 190lbs to 250lbs at 6'0" and I always did better at muay thai on the lighter end of the scale.

 

[Thunder Foot]

The person giving us the lesson in physics mentioned how mass is an important factor in creating a forceful blow. But in regards to that, speed is just as an important factor. And being on the lean side will allow you to generate more speed. I think the importance is creating "dense" muscle tissue thats not limiting of your range of motion. Of course, in my experience it is more advantageous to be faster... just as long as you hit with a good amount of force.

 

[Truong]

the muscle mass i gained was lean muscle, and i was just trying to say that the muscle i have now as to the muscle i didnt have before has helped my punches become a little more powerful when combined with technique + speed + force...im not too good with words so im sorry!

 

[savior]

The person giving us the lesson in physics mentioned how mass is an important factor in creating a forceful blow. But in regards to that, speed is just as an important factor.

yeah A= acceleration (a sort of speed, just not constant).

Basically, bottom line is, and I think we can all agree on this, is that muscle mass isnt everything, in fact, too much muscle may be detrimental! You need a perfect balance between muscle mass, swiftness, and stamina to be a great Thai fighter

 

[Thunder Foot]

I agree. Just giving a different side of the same coin, hehe. :asian:

 

[thaistyle]

A good fighter must have speed, flexibilty, and great form/technique to create power.

 

[denmyos]

Hi i just joint the site.
Sorry for picking up this old thread, but i just startet MT and want to know about strength training.

I have been lifting weight for around 1 year.
I usually go between 8-10 rep.
But i have notice that in MT, im strong enough but my mucles get tired very quickly.

So i have change my weight training, so now i do 15 rep.
and some "explosive" training (positive moment very fast, negative moment very slow)
I have yet to notice any difference in my MT.

am i doing it right, or do somebody have some other idears.

thx

 

[Thunder Foot]

Hi Denmyos, welcome to the site!! In reference to your strength training, it really could be any number of things. We would need more information to give you exact advice. However speaking from a general point, if you have muscular strength and you find yourself still getting tired, it sounds like you may need to increase your cardio. Running a few miles twice to 3 times a week is a good start as well as jumping rope. In weight lifting, you may want to take your reps up to 18-20 and increase the amount of sets you do... and also time your rest periods in between sets. Maybe shorten them to 30-45secs?

And MOST importantly, you have to do more Muay Thai. I'm not sure how often you train, but you should try to strive for atleast 500 kicks, 500 punches, 500 knees, etc. per day... if not much more. Nothing is going to build up the right muscles for punching and kicking, better than punching and kicking! Good luck.

 

[denmyos]

Im not getting tired, cadio wise,, but in the muscles.
I run 5-10 k as often as i can, and problely the one with the best cadio in MT class. :angel:
What im getting is muscles fatige. But its getting better the more i train.
In the beginning i was just surprised how quickly i was getting fatige, even though i was in exellent condition. But it as ofcause some thing to do with what u are trained for.

 

[Xerosoul]

Thunder foot is 100% correct... bottom line when it comes to any kind of training, High weight low rep is for power, low weight high rep is for speed/ endurance. I train at high weight low rep to build up my power with weight lifting and I use thai to train my speed and endurance (no weight, high reps). I do both 4 days a week and I spend a lot of time covered in tiger balm. So it really depends on your goals, are you running out of gas? then go high rep. Lacking in power then go high weight.

 

[DeadlyShins]

Thunder foot is 100% correct... bottom line when it comes to any kind of training, High weight low rep is for power, low weight high rep is for speed/ endurance. I train at high weight low rep to build up my power with weight lifting and I use thai to train my speed and endurance (no weight, high reps). I do both 4 days a week and I spend a lot of time covered in tiger balm. So it really depends on your goals, are you running out of gas? then go high rep. Lacking in power then go high weight.

The weight/rep argument is as old as time. lol I find that if you are getting fatigued training MT, then what you need to do is muscle endurance exercises, not just cardio and not just weight lifting. Do some plyometrics to work your stabilizers. Do some ground work or wrestling...nothing builds up muscle endurance like working against someone trying to do the same thing. And most importantly...train your MT!! lol Endurance will come...power will come...speed will come...work on good technique...cuz its all useless if you're doing the wrong thing!

 

[suicide]

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