question about stance and 20 principles

K-man

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They all have their advantages depending on the current context (positioning, angle, goal...). It's the same reason why we have so many different strikes instead of just training one punch only.

Do you really believe that? We have different strikes because we are striking specific points. Some points like the side of the neck are best attacked by a Shuto or Haito uchi, the temple with Tetsui or Ureken uchi, ribs with ippon ken etc. etc. How I have my feet is of no consequence as long as I have a strong centre.

Hopefully from receiving good instruction and then having the extended opportunity to train with multiple partners and thus gain knowledge of what works individually for us.

Once again, I disagree. Multiple partners are not required. Depending on the take down I will step in with Sanchin or Zenkutsu dachi. Zenkutsu may transition into Shiko or Kokutsu dachi. But these are all close range stances. The crescent step takes the foot behind the opponent's leg. That doesn't apply to any of the deeper stances.

Some stances are more conducive to certain activities than others. Like shifting quickly to a cat stance to avoid a strike before lashing out with a kick. A boxer wouldn't need to train a cat stance since he doesn't have to worry about his opponent kicking him. In short, because boxing confines each participant to what they can or can't do, it likewise puts them on a path to specialization in a smaller subset of skills, rather than arguably a more generalist perspective that a karate-ka would have. There are surely other examples as well.

This sounds more like a sport based application than RBSD. Not saying you can't step off the line into Neko to launch a counter but I would call that an additional benefit.

At 2 meters or indeed at any range, it depends first on what we train and then on situational context with what the immediate goal at the time is. For example, I suspect someone in Isshinryu would stand in that high short stance they call seisan dachi since they can fire all their techniques from that range. A judo-ka might assume a shoulder length stance with his feet sprayed 45 degrees apart called natural stance or sometimes shizen-hontai as it would give him some degree of stability as he considers how to close if needed.

Seisan dachi is basically the same as our Sanchin dachi. Why would anyone stand like that at sparring distance? And the Judo-ka will certainly choose a stance like that because he is about to grapple. Once he is grappling he will change his stance when appropriate.

One answer is because in sanchin dachi we train our Naha-te derived method of creating bursting power in our strikes while also having fast/efficient movement in a supremely stable position.

I might suggest that if you are locked in Sanchin dachi you won't be moving anywhere in a hurry. :)

I'll also play the Jedi mind trick here and state that actually a bunch of non-Goju stylists crescent step in zenkutsu dachi as well. It might be fun examining why they do it and think about the correlation if any to sanchin dachi. :)

I think they do it because at some stage someone decided that it looked like a good thing to do. I think it is a flawed technique, but that is just my opinion.


To be sure, I wasn't trying to imply that we can substitute one stance for another willy-nilly. I was saying the transitional movements and what we are doing as part of creating the platform are more important IMO than the final posture itself.

I think we are eating the pie from opposite sides. You are looking at stances as a platform for delivering a technique where I am looking at them more as an integrel part of a grappling technique.
OK. When I was Japanese Goju I would probably have supported everything that you have posted. Since changing to the Okinawan form, and training with people from the Jundokan, my understanding has changed substantially. With regard to having a sound base for striking, you might like to chase up Russell Stutely's material on power hitting. He is from a Shotokan background. His approach is more to do with weight transfer than a fixed base.

As to the stance for sparring at a distance of two metres, I have only ever seen a natural stance (Moto dachi). (My teacher in the early 80s was in the Australian team and his teacher was Australia's team coach.) Certainly in those days when I sparred I liked to drop back into Neko because it made it very easy to score with a snap kick. But in reality Neko has much more going for it in a close combat situation. :asian:
 

dancingalone

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They all have their advantages depending on the current context (positioning, angle, goal...). It's the same reason why we have so many different strikes instead of just training one punch only.

Do you really believe that? We have different strikes because we are striking specific points. Some points like the side of the neck are best attacked by a Shuto or Haito uchi, the temple with Tetsui or Ureken uchi, ribs with ippon ken etc. etc. How I have my feet is of no consequence as long as I have a strong centre.

I didn't think we were in disagreement going off what we both wrote. Perhaps I was too vague in referring to context? Indeed, target and desired outcome are factors in picking the strike and goes hand in hand with what I mean by 'context'. As for the feet, that is exactly what i mean. The fine details like exactly the angle in which your toes or your heel points is unimportant to a degree... so long the more salient concepts are still present such as centering and muscular relaxation and contraction, keeping in mind that those fine details do help put together the final picture in the first place.

Hopefully from receiving good instruction and then having the extended opportunity to train with multiple partners and thus gain knowledge of what works individually for us.

Once again, I disagree. Multiple partners are not required.

It is always useful to practice with a multitude of people of differing height, size, and strength. I have also found it useful to practice with differing experience levels and indeed varying types of experiences too. While it is true that possessing optimal technique means all those things are lessened as factors when vying with another, I believe it a good thing to calibrate my own understanding continually against as much physical variety that I can find. For the same reason, we mix up partners in my classes so everyone gets the same opportunity to change things up.

Depending on the take down I will step in with Sanchin or Zenkutsu dachi. Zenkutsu may transition into Shiko or Kokutsu dachi. But these are all close range stances. The crescent step takes the foot behind the opponent's leg. That doesn't apply to any of the deeper stances.

Again, I don't know that I am disagreeing with you. I don't see anything in opposition with what you wrote above when I first said, "As a further thought, what's most important about stances are the bodily actions performed in transition to and from them. You can 'cheat' to an extent on the outward appearance (toe/heel angle slightly awry), but so long as the other parts are true, like shoulder/hip alignment, etc, you can still have a very stable and powerful delivery platform for your strikes and such."


Some stances are more conducive to certain activities than others. Like shifting quickly to a cat stance to avoid a strike before lashing out with a kick. A boxer wouldn't need to train a cat stance since he doesn't have to worry about his opponent kicking him. In short, because boxing confines each participant to what they can or can't do, it likewise puts them on a path to specialization in a smaller subset of skills, rather than arguably a more generalist perspective that a karate-ka would have. There are surely other examples as well.

This sounds more like a sport based application than RBSD. Not saying you can't step off the line into Neko to launch a counter but I would call that an additional benefit.

<shrugs> Everything has a purpose. I imagine you're approaching this from the idea that nekoashi dachi like kokutsu dachi puts your weight and center onto the back leg with the accompanying implications for both sinking force and then a recoil/springing action forward. If so, OK. But I don't know that I would call the idea of catting to avoid an attack sport-based. Isn't this very application sometimes interpreted from Gekisai Dai Ni before mawashi uke? Also, there's nothing wrong with finding multiplicity where it is both useful and effective. If I use one of my shoes to swat a mosquito, I might still find the effect satisfactory regardless of the shoe's intended purpose.

At 2 meters or indeed at any range, it depends first on what we train and then on situational context with what the immediate goal at the time is. For example, I suspect someone in Isshinryu would stand in that high short stance they call seisan dachi since they can fire all their techniques from that range. A judo-ka might assume a shoulder length stance with his feet sprayed 45 degrees apart called natural stance or sometimes shizen-hontai as it would give him some degree of stability as he considers how to close if needed.

Seisan dachi is basically the same as our Sanchin dachi. Why would anyone stand like that at sparring distance?

Feet are pointed forwards in Isshinryu seisan dachi. They also don't always crescent step in this stance and often use it as a standard sparring stance. Not sure how much exposure you have to Isshinryu karate-ka or whether the folks I know are an exception, but I kid you not - I have definitely seen them use seisan dachi as a neutral stance from medium to long range. They can push off either the front leg or rear leg to advance or retreat quickly and thus can close the gap within it. And once they are in close range, it becomes just like sanchin dachi as you've said. It is a versatile stance for them.

And the Judo-ka will certainly choose a stance like that because he is about to grapple. Once he is grappling he will change his stance when appropriate.

Yes. In general, different stances have different purposes. Again, I don't think I have said otherwise.

One answer is because in sanchin dachi we train our Naha-te derived method of creating bursting power in our strikes while also having fast/efficient movement in a supremely stable position.

I might suggest that if you are locked in Sanchin dachi you won't be moving anywhere in a hurry. :)

OK, you've got me here. :) Fast enough in the context of CQB I should say.


I'll also play the Jedi mind trick here and state that actually a bunch of non-Goju stylists crescent step in zenkutsu dachi as well. It might be fun examining why they do it and think about the correlation if any to sanchin dachi. :)

I think they do it because at some stage someone decided that it looked like a good thing to do. I think it is a flawed technique, but that is just my opinion.

A Shotokan shihan once told me 1) it's because they take such a wide stance in zenkutsu that they actually need the crescenting to stay balanced as they move formally and 2) they sometimes do it partially to train foot sweeps. <shrugs> Maybe it works for them.

To be sure, I wasn't trying to imply that we can substitute one stance for another willy-nilly. I was saying the transitional movements and what we are doing as part of creating the platform are more important IMO than the final posture itself.

I think we are eating the pie from opposite sides. You are looking at stances as a platform for delivering a technique where I am looking at them more as an integrel part of a grappling technique.

Some would say the two are the one and the same and I lean towards that perspective these days myself.



OK. When I was Japanese Goju I would probably have supported everything that you have posted. Since changing to the Okinawan form, and training with people from the Jundokan, my understanding has changed substantially. With regard to having a sound base for striking, you might like to chase up Russell Stutely's material on power hitting. He is from a Shotokan background. His approach is more to do with weight transfer than a fixed base.

Weight transfer as the primary factor? I'll definitely look him up out of interest, but as you know that's surely not the Goju-ryu method.

As to the stance for sparring at a distance of two metres, I have only ever seen a natural stance (Moto dachi). (My teacher in the early 80s was in the Australian team and his teacher was Australia's team coach.) Certainly in those days when I sparred I liked to drop back into Neko because it made it very easy to score with a snap kick. But in reality Neko has much more going for it in a close combat situation. :asian:

I don't disagree with your last sentence. Getting sleepy or I would try to write a more concise summary here... Peace.
 

K-man

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<shrugs> Everything has a purpose. I imagine you're approaching this from the idea that nekoashi dachi like kokutsu dachi puts your weight and center onto the back leg with the accompanying implications for both sinking force and then a recoil/springing action forward. If so, OK. But I don't know that I would call the idea of catting to avoid an attack sport-based. Isn't this very application sometimes interpreted from Gekisai Dai Ni before mawashi uke? Also, there's nothing wrong with finding multiplicity where it is both useful and effective. If I use one of my shoes to swat a mosquito, I might still find the effect satisfactory regardless of the shoe's intended purpose.

Neko, for me is mainly for breaking my opponent's balance, normally from behind or at least the side. Because 90% of our training is kata based we normally don't go springing anywhere because we are hanging off our attacker giving him a hard time. :)

Feet are pointed forwards in Isshinryu seisan dachi. They also don't always crescent step in this stance and often use it as a standard sparring stance. Not sure how much exposure you have to Isshinryu karate-ka or whether the folks I know are an exception, but I kid you not - I have definitely seen them use seisan dachi as a neutral stance from medium to long range. They can push off either the front leg or rear leg to advance or retreat quickly and thus can close the gap within it. And once they are in close range, it becomes just like sanchin dachi as you've said. It is a versatile stance for them.

Depending on level, feet are pointed forward in Jundokan Sanchin dachi also. The outsides of the feet are parallel which makes the toes appear to point in, but the advantage is you don't need to unlock before moving. Those who do have the front foot turned only turn it slightly. The pronounced turn of the foot is for beginners. Isshin Ryu also have Sanchin dachi so their Seisan dachi seems to be the unlocked position which explains why they can move quickly. It also explains why they don't step with it in a crescent as it is just a forward movement, not a trapping one.

I'll also play the Jedi mind trick here and state that actually a bunch of non-Goju stylists crescent step in zenkutsu dachi as well. It might be fun examining why they do it and think about the correlation if any to sanchin dachi.

A Shotokan shihan once told me 1) it's because they take such a wide stance in zenkutsu that they actually need the crescenting to stay balanced as they move formally and 2) they sometimes do it partially to train foot sweeps. <shrugs> Maybe it works for them.

There is probably a semblance of truth in the first point. To maintain balance the foot must move in slightly. I'm not sure I would bring my foot in so far that you would call it a crescent. As for the foot sweep, I'm not sure that is a feature of moving in a long stance.
OK. When I was Japanese Goju I would probably have supported everything that you have posted. Since changing to the Okinawan form, and training with people from the Jundokan, my understanding has changed substantially. With regard to having a sound base for striking, you might like to chase up Russell Stutely's material on power hitting. He is from a Shotokan background. His approach is more to do with weight transfer than a fixed base.

Weight transfer as the primary factor? I'll definitely look him up out of interest, but as you know that's surely not the Goju-ryu method.

Actually, it is a lot closer than you might think. Have a look at the video clip of Kinjo & Gima at 7 mins. They have a short section of moving in to strike. They generate from the hips and are still moving in when the strike lands. I can tell you that even a 'soft' punch goes through you. Especially look at Gima striking at 7:40. They don't punch from a set base.
Just a bit of Jundokan training in Carlsbad.

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqAacYVcXZs[/video]
 

punisher73

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I was trying to find a thread to link to it, but I couldn't find it on kung fu forums. So I'll summarize. The thread starter runs a well known San Da gym in New York and also has training in traditional chinese arts. He posted a thread that showed pictures from an old kung fu book illustrating a form. He then posted pictures from a chinese wrestling manual and showed how many of the steps and hand positions of the form were the same as the grappling moves taught to students.

We must always remember that the forms we have left in any martial art are kind of like the game "Jeopardy". We have the answer, NOW we need to find the right questions.
 

K-man

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I was trying to find a thread to link to it, but I couldn't find it on kung fu forums. So I'll summarize. The thread starter runs a well known San Da gym in New York and also has training in traditional chinese arts. He posted a thread that showed pictures from an old kung fu book illustrating a form. He then posted pictures from a chinese wrestling manual and showed how many of the steps and hand positions of the form were the same as the grappling moves taught to students.

We must always remember that the forms we have left in any martial art are kind of like the game "Jeopardy". We have the answer, NOW we need to find the right questions.
Great analogy. That is why I love it when the WC guys post their vids. I also have a couple of books of Chi Na for that very reason.
:asian:
 

chinto

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OK two cents worth here... and no refunds... lol.

I was in a standing throw seminar, and found with out thought, or intent when the person tried to throw me, I was suddenly finding myself in one of the classic Karate stances.
It gave my partner fits! I was very very difficult to throw, and found that I usually had a lot of very nasty targets available and could in turn if not strike often throw him! Karate teaches ( at least the two Okinawan styles I train in, to get close and finish it!! )

There are two distances to work in in a fight. at longer distance, where its harder to get hurt and to hurt some one, and often where you see sport sparring. And close in, were you can do a lot of damage fast, and end it quickly, but also be badly hurt fast to. Karate on Okinawa developed with the second distance, as if you lost well you were dead anyway! also it might be a satsuma samurai you fought and he would definitely be armed! With that armed man being close and ending it fast was the best way to stay alive!
 

Chris Parker

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We must always remember that the forms we have left in any martial art are kind of like the game "Jeopardy". We have the answer, NOW we need to find the right questions.

Ha, not left in "any martial art".... it's a rarity to have any such gaps in the old Japanese systems.... just so you know....
 

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