Public vs private kulo?

[wckf92]

Read somewhere that master or gm's or the gatekeepers of this style of WC sometimes would do a different version of their stuff in front of public vs in private. Anyone know of an example to share? Like, what specifically would they alter, edit, or leave out...? Or add in...?
Thanks.

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[KPM]

Oh, this is very true! And for many years the people outside of Ku Lo and the Fung family were never quite sure whether they had learned the "real thing" or the "public version." Fung Sang was one of the main guys teaching outside of Ku Lo village in the 60's and 70's. He taught a "public" version. This is also how we have come to have some of the "variants" or branches of Ku Lo Wing Chun...like the 22 Point system that John Fung teaches or the 40 point system that Robert Chu teaches.

For an example, in that old footage taken when Leung Ting visited Ku Lo village researching his "Roots & Branches" book crusty old Fung Chun showed Leung Ting what he thought he wanted to see! He strung together several of the short sets into one longer set to make it look like the Ip Man SNT form!

In recent years things have improved. Most of the younger generation has left Ku Lo village. So the "real thing" is being taught much more openly today. Fung Chun's son Fung Keung has videos up on youtube showing some of it.

 

[wckf92]

Oh, this is very true! And for many years the people outside of Ku Lo and the Fung family were never quite sure whether they had learned the "real thing" or the "public version." Fung Sang was one of the main guys teaching outside of Ku Lo village in the 60's and 70's. He taught a "public" version. This is also how we have come to have some of the "variants" or branches of Ku Lo Wing Chun...like the 22 Point system that John Fung teaches or the 40 point system that Robert Chu teaches.

For an example, in that old footage taken when Leung Ting visited Ku Lo village researching his "Roots & Branches" book crusty old Fung Chun showed Leung Ting what he thought he wanted to see! He strung together several of the short sets into one longer set to make it look like the Ip Man SNT form!

In recent years things have improved. Most of the younger generation has left Ku Lo village. So the "real thing" is being taught much more openly today. Fung Chun's son Fung Keung has videos up on youtube showing some of it.

Thx KPM.
So, this guy 'Fung Chun' basically made up some stuff on the fly for the audience?
Do you know of a more precise example? I think you stated once that the guys you train with in Boston are a san sik / point based approach. And that each 'point' is done with a partner, on the jong, in chi sau, etc etc. Can you give an example of what the difference would be between the public and private version of say...point 1 or point ABC or however they are catalogued in that system? Like, would the public version have an intentional tactical or strategic 'flaw' embedded into it? That sort of thing?

 

[Jens]

wckf92, what's your wing chun background and where are you located?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Read somewhere that master or gm's or the gatekeepers of this style of WC sometimes would do a different version of their stuff in front of public vs in private. Anyone know of an example to share? Like, what specifically would they alter, edit, or leave out...? Or add in...?
Thanks.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

This is not uncommon in a lot of Chinese Martial arts styles

 

[KPM]

Thx KPM.
So, this guy 'Fung Chun' basically made up some stuff on the fly for the audience?
Do you know of a more precise example? I think you stated once that the guys you train with in Boston are a san sik / point based approach. And that each 'point' is done with a partner, on the jong, in chi sau, etc etc. Can you give an example of what the difference would be between the public and private version of say...point 1 or point ABC or however they are catalogued in that system? Like, would the public version have an intentional tactical or strategic 'flaw' embedded into it? That sort of thing?

Fung Chun didn't really "make it up" as much as just combine things together. Also...most of the Ku Lo sets have one hand moving with the other in the Wu Sau position instead of pulled back to the side. When Fung Chun demo'd for Leung Ting he pulled his fists back just like in Ip man Wing Chun.

I haven't seen all of the "public version" taught by Fung Sang. And, of course, I was told I was learning the "real deal." But I have seen the instructional video of the 22 Point system that is up on youtube, and I have seen some of John Fung's stuff based on that system. While a lot of motions are the same, sometimes the overall content of a given set is different and carries a completely different name. The two man sets are different as well. So while Fung Sang's version would likely be recognized as a Ku Lo variant, sometimes the 22 point system looks like a totally different version of Wing Chun. Lee Shing incorporated a lot of Fung Sang's system into his own Wing Chun and taught his version of "Ku Lo" to some of his students. I have seen a bit of that, and it is closer to what I learned than the 22 point system.

Another thing you see is that some Ku Lo branches have an actual dummy form. You see this from the guys in Singapore. But the original Ku Lo system had no formal dummy form. You just practiced each short set on the dummy (sometimes slightly adapted/modified) and then you strung the various sets together in different combinations to suit yourself.

I have a friend in Guangdong who has traveled around. He visited Shaping. This seems to be where most of the younger generation of Ku Lo villagers have set up shop. There are several Ku Lo schools there and my friend tells me that are very "fighting" oriented and tend to dominate the local tournaments. It would be very interesting to see how different or similar what they are doing is to what I have learned. I hope to pay a visit at some point. But it is a little more difficult to travel to mainland China than it is to travel to HK. I tried to find Fung Keung when I was in HK last and discovered that he had moved to Shaping!

 

[anerlich]

William Cheung makes similar claims about YM WC.

 

[wckf92]

Also...most of the Ku Lo sets have one hand moving with the other in the Wu Sau position instead of pulled back to the side. When Fung Chun demo'd for Leung Ting he pulled his fists back just like in Ip man Wing Chun.

Do you mean, during the execution of a 'form'? (WRT the hand being in Wu or pulled back)

I haven't seen all of the "public version" taught by Fung Sang. And, of course, I was told I was learning the "real deal." But I have seen the instructional video of the 22 Point system that is up on youtube, and I have seen some of John Fung's stuff based on that system. While a lot of motions are the same, sometimes the overall content of a given set is different and carries a completely different name. The two man sets are different as well. So while Fung Sang's version would likely be recognized as a Ku Lo variant, sometimes the 22 point system looks like a totally different version of Wing Chun. Lee Shing incorporated a lot of Fung Sang's system into his own Wing Chun and taught his version of "Ku Lo" to some of his students. I have seen a bit of that, and it is closer to what I learned than the 22 point system.

Interesting. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you did not learn a '22' point; but one of the other ___ point systems of Ku Lo?

At this point in your WC journey within the Ku Lo stuff...as you look back at your training, do you wonder or know for sure which version you were taught ("real" or "public") and if so, how were you able to distinguish the difference(s)?

Another thing you see is that some Ku Lo branches have an actual dummy form. You see this from the guys in Singapore. But the original Ku Lo system had no formal dummy form. You just practiced each short set on the dummy (sometimes slightly adapted/modified) and then you strung the various sets together in different combinations to suit yourself.

Hmmm...so, does the same thinking apply to the weapons in Ku Lo?

I have a friend in Guangdong who has traveled around. He visited Shaping. This seems to be where most of the younger generation of Ku Lo villagers have set up shop. There are several Ku Lo schools there and my friend tells me that are very "fighting" oriented and tend to dominate the local tournaments. It would be very interesting to see how different or similar what they are doing is to what I have learned. I hope to pay a visit at some point. But it is a little more difficult to travel to mainland China than it is to travel to HK. I tried to find Fung Keung when I was in HK last and discovered that he had moved to Shaping!

How many different 'points' are there in the Ku Lo variants? You've mentioned a 22, and a 40?

 

[wckf92]

William Cheung makes similar claims about YM WC.

You mean about YM doing some stuff public vs private?

 

[KPM]

Do you mean, during the execution of a 'form'? (WRT the hand being in Wu or pulled back)

----Yes. In Ku Lo Wing Chun the short sets are done without one hand being held as a fist at the side.



Interesting. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you did not learn a '22' point; but one of the other ___ point systems of Ku Lo?

----"Original" Ku Lo Wing Chun did not distinguish itself by any numbered "point system", it was simply "Ku Lo Wing Chun" or "Pin Sun Wing Chun" ....which was used to distinguish it form the "Juen Sun Wing Chun" of the other branches. "Pin Sun" is "side body" and "Juen Sun" is "square body." Traditionally there were 18 short sets of around 3 techniques each. Over time other short sets were added. Robert Chu's version has 40 points because at some point someone broke things out further and further such that just practicing a Bong Sau over and over would be considered one of the 40 "points."



At this point in your WC journey within the Ku Lo stuff...as you look back at your training, do you wonder or know for sure which version you were taught ("real" or "public") and if so, how were you able to distinguish the difference(s)?

---Being able to see some of the video that Fung Keung or people that have visited him over the years has increased my confidence that I did indeed learn the "real thing." The major difference is that he seems to do things a bit "softer" and "flowy" than what I learned. But the sequence of the sets I have seen him do are the same.




Hmmm...so, does the same thinking apply to the weapons in Ku Lo?

---Kind of sort of? There are no knives in Ku Lo Wing Chun originally. Some lines do a knife set now, but it was a later addition....some say by Fung Ming.....Fung Sang's father. But the same is said of Leung Jan's Wing Chun in general....no knives. The knives were thought to have been added by his classmate, Fok Bo Chuen. The pole form in Ku Lo Wing Chun is very short....it is a 3 1/2 point pole rather than 6 1/2. I did not learn that part. But I saw the form. I wasn't very impressed with it. Leung Jan had only about 3 years of teaching in Ku Lo village before he died. He concentrated on providing a "refined" or "distilled" version of all of his empty hand fighting experience. I think the pole was just an afterthought.



How many different 'points' are there in the Ku Lo variants? You've mentioned a 22, and a 40?

---The 22 and the 40 are the only ones I am aware of that give a count like that as part of the title. I don't know how many points Fung Sang's version had.

 

[anerlich]

You mean about YM doing some stuff public vs private?

Yeah. The story has it that Leung Jan taught his sons the private system and Chan Wa Shun used to spy on them, which LJ knew. So Leung Jan came up with a "modified" system that he taught while CWS was watching. CWS taught YM the modified system, but one day YM ran into the aging Leung Bik, who easily beat him up. He then taught YM the private system. YM taught all his students but William Cheung the public system, and only taught William Cheung the private system.

According to William Cheung, the differences (abridged) include neutral stance, central line, side neutral stance, footwork, height of tan and bon sau, wrist position in bon. etc.

The "modified" system sounds like a total straw man that no one teaches.

He's stuck to this story since the 1970s or earlier, and I think he sincerely believes the history part at least.

Sounds way too implausible for me, though my instructor was his direct student.

 

[KPM]

I have never believed that story. It has way too many holes in it! In Ku Lo village Leung Jan taught Wong Wah Sam. Wong Wah Sam taught Fung Chun. So Fung Chun heard stories about Leung Jan from a direct student. And Fung Chun lived into his 90's with a clear mind and only died a few years back. So here was a grand-student of Leung Jan that could tell stories of what he did and what he knew. And none of it was anything like what William Cheung claims. And Fung Chun wasn't the only student of Wong Wah Sam. Others were around in Ku Lo village to corroborate. So the only person to do anything like what William Cheung considered the "private" version of Wing Chun was William Cheung himself. But there were several people around to show what Leung Jan taught Wong Wah Sam before his death. And at that point there was no reason for him to keep anything a secret.

 

[geezer]

Having two versions, i.e. the "public-private" thing is pretty wide spread in kung fu. Many teachers have been said to teach a watered down version, keeping something back for their closest disciples. Robert W. Smith pointed this out way back in 1974 in his book Chinese Boxers, commenting on how excessive secrecy caused many systems to deteriorate and eventually die out.

I've seen this in the many cheesy books and posters of WC forms sold by my old Chinese sifu. They are full of intentional errors and omissions designed at "cleverly" misleading those outside the inner circle. A really bad idea IMO since sharp people from other WC lineages will spot these "errors" and mistakenly assume that his lineage is crap.

On the other hand, WC "true believers" are always assuming such negative things about other lineages anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter. Still, I just don't think it's ethical to be deliberately selling false and misleading information. Another reason not to try learning from books and videos I guess.

BTW William Cheung was not the first or only self-promoting sifu to reference the Leung Bic story regarding what was "public and private" or "higher level and lower level" WC in the Yip Man lineage. Before William Cheung got a lot of publicity with his so called "traditional vs. Modified" WC in the 80's, my old sifu was claiming something very similar when he advertised himself as the "last closed door disciple" of GM Yip and maintained that his soft, "springy" approach to WC represented the final and most evolved stage of Yip Man's kung fu.

It makes a good story and feeds into the whole idea expressed in the Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun legends that the secret techniques of highest level of WC will enable even an old woman or slightly-built teenage girl to defeat powerful attackers. Hey, I like a good story too, but I also live in the real world and I like to think that I can distinguish fantasy from reality. ...Even when my own lineage is involved.

 

[Vajramusti]

I have never believed that story. It has way too many holes in it! In Ku Lo village Leung Jan taught Wong Wah Sam. Wong Wah Sam taught Fung Chun. So Fung Chun heard stories about Leung Jan from a direct student. And Fung Chun lived into his 90's with a clear mind and only died a few years back. So here was a grand-student of Leung Jan that could tell stories of what he did and what he knew. And none of it was anything like what William Cheung claims. And Fung Chun wasn't the only student of Wong Wah Sam. Others were around in Ku Lo village to corroborate. So the only person to do anything like what William Cheung considered the "private" version of Wing Chun was William Cheung himself. But there were several people around to show what Leung Jan taught Wong Wah Sam before his death. And at that point there was no reason for him to keep anything a secret.

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Leung Jan retired to Kulo two years before his death and taught some self defense moves
to several villagers.What those villagers learned hardly seem to be systems IMO.

 

[Danny T]

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Leung Jan retired to Kulo two years before his death and taught some self defense moves
to several villagers.What those villagers learned hardly seem to be systems IMO.

Excellent point.
I teach several 'self defense' classes to the public every year and have done so for over 20 years.
These programs have a strong wc base within them and I will reference where the material comes from as I instruct. At these classes a group of followers has developed with some becoming regulars but only training with me at these classes.
Have heard talk of them learning wc from me.
'Uh... no you haven't'

 

[KPM]

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Leung Jan retired to Kulo two years before his death and taught some self defense moves
to several villagers.What those villagers learned hardly seem to be systems IMO.

Oh get off it Joy. Why do you always try to disparage and discredit the Ku Lo system every time it comes up? The Ku Lo guys say he was there for 3 years. I think they would know better than you. There is far more to the system than just "some self defense moves." That should be clear to anyone that has paid any attention at all to what I or Jim Roselando has written in these forums over the past several years. Why do you carry such a grudge against Ku Lo Wing Chun?

 

[KPM]

Excellent point.
I teach several 'self defense' classes to the public every year and have done so for over 20 years.
These programs have a strong wc base within them and I will reference where the material comes from as I instruct. At these classes a group of followers has developed with some becoming regulars but only training with me at these classes.
Have heard talk of them learning wc from me.
'Uh... no you haven't'

I have actually studied the Ku Lo system in pretty good depth. I say it is far more than just "some self defense moves." So it was not an "excellent point" because Joy doesn't know what he is talking about. So who do you believe? Someone that has actually studied the system? Or someone that has become rather bitter and crotchety in his old age?

 

[Vajramusti]

Oh get off it Joy. Why do you always try to disparage and discredit the Ku Lo system every time it comes up? The Ku Lo guys say he was there for 3 years. I think they would know better than you. There is far more to the system than just "some self defense moves." That should be clear to anyone that has paid any attention at all to what I or Jim Roselando has written in these forums over the past several years. Why do you carry such a grudge against Ku Lo Wing Chun?[/QUOTE
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I call it as I see it. I have met Jim in Boston and I have seen the videos he took. No grudges.]

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Baloney. You spent an evening in a hotel with Jim and you think you're an expert on Ku Lo Wing Chun?? You've got a grudge for some reason. Either that or you are really developing some dementia. And for someone who posts very rarely here nowadays, why would you choose now to post and discredit Ku Lo Wing Chun?

 

[geezer]

I have actually studied the Ku Lo system in pretty good depth. I say it is far more than just "some self defense moves." So it was not an "excellent point" because Joy doesn't know what he is talking about. So who do you believe? Someone that has actually studied the system? Or someone that has become rather bitter and crotchety in his old age?

I'm feeling really bitter and crotchety lately, so let me chime in! Factually speaking, Joy is right. Leung Jan only lived a couple of years after retiring to Gu-lo village. So there is no way he could have taught the whole WC system from scratch.

On the other hand, if some of the villagers he taught were physically gifted and already accomplished southern boxers, he could have imparted the conceptual essence of his WC through a set of streamlined drills. Then, over the next couple of generations, the inheritors of this core could easily flesh it out into a complete WC system. Just one possibility.

My old sifu experienced something similar. He got most of his WC from his first sifu, Leung Sheung and some of his hing-dai (kung fu brothers). Much later he trained privately with Yip Man. His period of instruction under Yip Man was fairly brief, but deep. That on top of what he already knew gave him an entirely new perspective on WC. So no, you can't teach a system from scratch in such a short time, but if you have "good wood" to work with, you can do a lot.