Pros and cons - sharp or flat surface of shin?

[Fungus]

I wonder how you guys that do full contact kicking with the shin, reason about pros and cons on where to hit on the shin?
The factors are - angled vs horisontal kicks, angled vs horizontal shin bone, speed vs power, impact on knees due to side force on impact, and cuttin opponent vs risk of own injyring kicking into a knee etc?
pros anc cons of hip rotation requirements etc? I'ven been obsessing about this lately.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wonder how you guys that do full contact kicking with the shin, reason about pros and cons on where to hit on the shin?
The factors are - angled vs horisontal kicks, angled vs horizontal shin bone, speed vs power, impact on knees due to side force on impact, and cuttin opponent vs risk of own injyring kicking into a knee etc?
pros anc cons of hip rotation requirements etc? I'ven been obsessing about this lately.

View attachment 32088View attachment 32089

All of this makes me want to say "shin conditioning" as the answer.
I highly recommend taking note of where the impact areas are when you are kicking someone's leg and when you are doing leg checks. Then condition those areas as a priority. You'll want to condition all of the shin, but certain areas will need more attention than others.

The angle of the shin is determined by the technique being used. You can probably have someone hold a staff and you can lightly kick that to get an idea of where your impact areas are. The kick should be natural as what you use vs formal as what you would do in kata. After you kick the staff, have your partner lightly swing it and leg check it. Once you make note of the impact areas, then verify it in sparring to make sure that those are the areas receiving the impact.

The only real con is not to have conditioned shins.

 

[drop bear]

I have never heard of flat surface of the shin.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have never heard of flat surface of the shin.

Inner part of the leg where the bone is closer to the skin.

 

[Fungus]

I have never heard of flat surface of the shin.

 

[Buka]

I went to dinner a few weeks ago with some friends. My buddy Richard was there with his wife. Richard is a life long Kyokushin practitioner.

His wife told me “He still has a broken baseball bat on the wall in the den. I’ve been asking him for years to throw the darn thing
away.”

Richard said, “Hey, that’s the first Louisville Slugger I ever broke with a shin kick. The rest were easy, it’s that first one that scares you. You’re lucky I didn’t save them all.”

 

[Fungus]

All of this makes me want to say "shin conditioning" as the answer.
I highly recommend taking note of where the impact areas are when you are kicking someone's leg and when you are doing leg checks. Then condition those areas as a priority. You'll want to condition all of the shin, but certain areas will need more attention than others.

The angle of the shin is determined by the technique being used. You can probably have someone hold a staff and you can lightly kick that to get an idea of where your impact areas are. The kick should be natural as what you use vs formal as what you would do in kata. After you kick the staff, have your partner lightly swing it and leg check it. Once you make note of the impact areas, then verify it in sparring to make sure that those are the areas receiving the impact.

The only real con is not to have conditioned shins.

Thanks, I fully get the point of conditioning and I think both body and mental conditioning is important but this in dependent of technique.

I was thining about speed/power and the knees side forces? As you say the part of shin that hits depends on the technique, but i can also choose my technique; thereof the question.

I personally think the flat part feels better, but not for the shin itself, but because
+ it requires slightle less internal hip rotation, and less turning on the food, but uses insted more "body rotation", so I feel like i get more rotational energy into the kick. and it thus allows for faster recovery as i don't end up as much sideways.
- It is maybe a little slower? less snappy, but instead more power. And for this is good as some hip rotation is difficult for my back.
- But at least in theory, it should logically give more sideways backreaction into my knee joint on the kicking leg. But i haven't ever felt a problem, but it wonder if it may come with time?

Maybe most people don't analyse things as much but I wonder if someone had any input on this. I found recently that active thinking about NOT trying to land on the sharp part of the bone, but actively aim for the flat part, and instead raise my kneed earlier to create horizontal momentum from body rotation makes it easier and it feels better.

I think the choice depends also on your hip flexibility, but the question is which is faster, more powerful and better for your knees?

 

[_Simon_]

Hmmm interesting! I'd also never heard of striking with the flat part, there ya go!

Yeah I always strike with the sharp edge of the shin, sometimes in the junction between the foot and lower leg, but usually a bit higher up so it's more shin. At a kumite seminar I went to a few months ago the guy I was sparring commented "damn your shins!" I guess not everyone leg kicks with more shin maybe haha

 

[Buka]

My buddy Richard’s first Louisville Slugger that he broke with his shin.

You can’t throw something like that away.
Girls don’t understand.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was thining about speed/power and the knees side forces? As you say the part of shin that hits depends on the technique, but i can also choose my technique; thereof the question.

Even if you chose the technique, you don't want to choose the impact area which may make the technique less effective. Say I want to do a low leg kick. But instead of letting the technique define the area of impact, I decided that I should turn my leg over, so it lands on the outer side of my shine. By choosing that impact area, I have made the kick less effective.

I personally think the flat part feels better, but not for the shin itself, but because
+ it requires slightle less internal hip rotation, and less turning on the food, but uses insted more "body rotation", so I feel like i get more rotational energy into the kick. and it thus allows for faster recovery as i don't end up as much sideways.

So for this, it sounds like "internal hip rotation" is the issue. So instead of trying to hit your shin an a specific area to stop the rotation caused by the technique, it would be better to use a "Step through kick" Step through kicks don't rotate on the foot. If I want to kick your lead leg then I would have to step through and off center in order to kick your leg. With this kick I'm using forward motion from the step to power the kick instead of rotating.

This is the step mechanics for the step kick. I prefer kicking like this because it gets me off center and it's an easier kick for me especially on surfaces with a lot of grip. The other advantage is that stepping off center causes people to reposition and forget about the trailing kick. The step also makes it easier to bail out of a kick

And for this is good as some hip rotation is difficult for my back.

If you have back issues that can't be fixed then step through kicks are going to be easier on the back and hip and that's me speaking from experience of having back issues.

Maybe most people don't analyse things as much but I wonder if someone had any input on this.

The only people who think about things at the level you are thinking about them are people who have back, hip, or knee issues and they are trying to kick in a way that doesn't negatively affect those areas.

I think the choice depends also on your hip flexibility, but the question is which is faster, more powerful and better for your knees?

There are many ways to kick so I wouldn't try to do to much "reinvention of the kick." Use the ones that don't tear up your body.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess not everyone leg kicks with more shin maybe haha

This would be correct.

 

[Fungus]

Even if you chose the technique, you don't want to choose the impact area which may make the technique less effective. Say I want to do a low leg kick. But instead of letting the technique define the area of impact, I decided that I should turn my leg over, so it lands on the outer side of my shine. By choosing that impact area, I have made the kick less effective.


So for this, it sounds like "internal hip rotation" is the issue.

Indeed it is one of my personal limitations, but in return I have extraordinary external rotation, so the valeri style heel kicks I do well, but these are very nast and not appreciated in sparring. Most people leave them for competitions only, as they are often worse than shin kicks.

So instead of trying to hit your shin an a specific area to stop the rotation caused by the technique, it would be better to use a "Step through kick" Step through kicks don't rotate on the foot. If I want to kick your lead leg then I would have to step through and off center in order to kick your leg. With this kick I'm using forward motion from the step to power the kick instead of rotating.

Yes, I do this version. It gives for sure, maximum power, but its telegraphing.

This is the step mechanics for the step kick. I prefer kicking like this because it gets me off center and it's an easier kick for me especially on surfaces with a lot of grip. The other advantage is that stepping off center causes people to reposition and forget about the trailing kick. The step also makes it easier to bail out of a kick

If you have back issues that can't be fixed then step through kicks are going to be easier on the back and hip and that's me speaking from experience of having back issues.

Yes, thanks. It's my preferred way of doing it so far, when there is time. But I also want to add a more speed version to my arsenal. The best I can do, is when I know people see the low kick coming as I side step and prepare to block, I side step a little extra and insted go for the inside of the supporting leg. Works quite good.

But lack of speed, rather than power is my challenge. What I try to focus on at the moment, and the last week is speed over power, as it's my weakness.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But lack of speed, rather than power is my challenge. What I try to focus on at the moment, and the last week is speed over power, as it's my weakness.

Unfortunately I can't help you with developing a faster kick. It's been a long time since my kicks have been fast. These days timing makes up for 70 percent of getting my kicks where they need to be. I'm usually waiting for weight shifts in my opponent so that their movement is delayed which gives my kick more time to find it's mark

 

[Fungus]

Unfortunately I can't help you with developing a faster kick. It's been a long time since my kicks have been fast.

I am sometimes tempted to think that developing speed, is perhaps the wrong path for me. I might have the wrong body type for speed.

But I want to give it a try and see if I can make something work. I try to improve speed for striking as well. I currently put alot more upper body weight behind most of my punches strong ground rooting (I like heel down most of the time) as compared to most sparring partners that rely on more snap.

 

[HighKick]

Inner part of the leg where the bone is closer to the skin.

Inner yes, but how many kicks intentionally hit that far inside? Of course, the closer you get to the instep, the 'flatter' the bone gets.

 

[Fungus]

Inner yes, but how many kicks intentionally hit that far inside? Of course, the closer you get to the instep, the 'flatter' the bone gets.

In close range kicking, often means I kick more higher up on the shin (along with knee strikes).
Then the natural striking areas from short to long range is
1. knees

2. upper/mid part of shin
3. lower part of shin
4. instep/foot

Turning over so much that you hit with the shart part of the bone, leaves you in a vulnerable position I think. Unless you are extremelty fast in hip rotations.

 

[isshinryuronin]

My buddy Richard’s first Louisville Slugger that he broke with his shin.

You can’t throw something like that away.
Girls don’t understand.

I kept the section I cut from a rolled tatami straw mat in iaido class with a kesa giri (diagonal cut). It was my first go at this and turned out rather well. It sat on my bookshelf for about 24 years. My wife never questioned it.

 

[Buka]

I kept the section I cut from a rolled tatami straw mat in iaido class with a kesa giri (diagonal cut). It was my first go at this and turned out rather well. It sat on my bookshelf for about 24 years. My wife never questioned it.

That’s a keeper!

 

[isshinryuronin]

That’s a keeper!

Which one are you referring to?

I got rid of the tatami section, kept the wife.

 

[Buka]

Which one are you referring to?

I got rid of the tatami section, kept the wife.

I got a good laugh from that.

I was referring to the tatami, but applaud your choice.

Vigorously, I might add.