Ha, yeah, definitely a cultural thing... here, if you go around calling people you don't know "sir", you're often seen as being overly wiling to be subordinate to someone... not necessarily by elevating them, but more by lowering yourself. It is pretty much how we would imply a degree of pomp, really... to illustrate, I work in sales, and a few of my fellow salespeople tend to use the term "sir" when addressing anyone whose name they don't know yet (customers), mainly to be "professional"... but it doesn't really work, as it kinda comes across as trying to make the customer feel (undeservedly, in the customers mind) important, by being eager to lower themselves (the salesperson) below them. In other words, it smacks of false humbleness (not humility)... it's "putting on airs"... a deliberately exaggerated display... and can lead to a bit more of an awkward dynamic... my personal approach is somewhat different, ha!
But what's interesting is that these approaches are often far more informed by the culture of the person than, perhaps, even they realise... the more you're immersed in a culture, especially if it's the only one you've known, the harder it can be to recognise the influence it has on so much of your behaviour, action, word choice, and more. Within a culture, none of the cultural aspects merit much attention... they will seem perfectly normal, almost as if there's no other alternative that makes sense... and it's only by looking from outside it that you can see the cultural aspects with any clarity.
Assuming by "the general idea", you're saying that my description if relatively accurate, the question then becomes... where does that come from?
Teaching the cultural context isn't overly common, so I'm not overly surprised by that... of course, that doesn't deny it's existence.
So... by that reckoning, your movement is culturally influenced/based in Japanese concepts, which extend from the movement to even the "non-posture"? This is exactly what I was describing, for the record... cool.
So, I've watched about three dozen videos of NGA, and to be honest, I don't see a lot of Western-derived movement... of course, I'm not seeing the whole system, so it's a limited observation, but I've tried to find as much "across the board" as I can find... some of the attacks are a bit more "Western", but not much more. Overwhelmingly, I see a lot of Aiki/Daito influenced/derived work, a good amount of Judo/Kano, and a bit of karate-based striking. Of course, this is purely an observation, not a critique or criticism, and obviously you'll know the system better than me.
Interesting. From the way you've described the organisation, how far do you feel that influence extended?
While the earlier training of someone can certainly have an influence on their expression of a later art, I feel that, if it's a major influence on the movement of a particular art, it becomes a new art... but that's a different discussion, of course.
And thanks again!
No... but I can see the confusion. I'll see if I can clear up what I was saying.
- The first Dan were awarded by Kano Jigoro in his new Kano Jujutsu around 1882/3 (after establishing it a couple of years earlier).
- In 1885, the first Kyu grades were awarded in Kenjutsu (later to be Kendo... not a specific ryu-ha. At this point, it basically referred to the Keishicho Police Kenjutsu, established around 1878). By 1887, Dan grades were adopted, with Kyu becoming "junior" grades.
- The Dai-Nippon Butokukai was then established in April, 1895, issuing the first Seirensho (later Renshi) in Kenjutsu in October.
- In 1902, the Butokukai created/established the further titles of Kyoshi and Hanshi, beginning to issue them from 1903.
- 1912, Funakoshi Gichin gives the first public demonstration in Japan.
- In 1916, a second demonstration series is held of Karate (known as Toudi or Te primarily).
- Funakoshi moves to Japan permanently in 1920.
- The first Dan grades in Karate are awarded by Funakoshi in 1924. Funakoshi also pushes the idea of changing the name to "Empty Hand" as opposed to "China Hand" in order to help the art assimilate into Japanese culture. There isn't a lot of support.
- In 1926, the name "Kendo" is officially adopted by the Tokyo Higher Normal school. This new name (taking over from kenjutsu and gekken [competition sword]) spreads around Japan.
- 1934 sees the title Seirensho changed to Renshi.
- 1936, the name of Karate is changed to "Empty Hand" as part of an effort to ingratiate it to Japanese society.
- 1937 adds the grade Rokudan (6th Dan) to the Butokukai.
- In 1942, the Butokukai comes under the control of military government, and the Kyoshi rank is renamed Tasshi (taken from the Tokyo Higher Normal schools creation of their own set of Shogo in 1930; Tokushi, Shushi, Tasshi).
- Following WWII, the Butokukai is forced to dissolve in 1946.
- The "spiritual successor" to the Butokukai, the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei is formed in 1953, setting Dan ranks to Godan, with the Shogo titles to be awarded after that.
- Judo still (theoretically) ranked practitioners up to Judan (10th Dan), so in 1957, the ZNKR increased the upper limit to Judan as well.
- Finally, in 2000, the upper limit for rank is set to Hachidan (8th Dan), due to a number of factors, with Hanshi being the highest "rank" one could attain.
By contrast, karate's ranking history and usage of terminology/titles is basically as follows:
- Pre-introduction to Japan, there was no rank system, or title applied in Toudi/Te.
- In 1901, Toude is introduced to the school system in Okinawa, a trend that Japan would follow with Kendo and Judo some 6 years later. This is also the beginning of the "simplification" of Karate.
- 1912, Karate is introduced to Japan with demonstrations from Funakoshi Gichin. There are still no ranks or titles in Okinawan Karate, and no such thing as Karate in Japan (mainland).
- 1920, Funakoshi moves permanently to Japan, and begins to establish dojo. He continues the work of "simplifying" the art, removing much of the bunkai, as well as introducing jiyu kumite (sparring), at the request of his Japanese students (who were also students of Kendo and Judo).
- 1924, the first Dan grades are awarded. No titles are yet applied. No ranks or titles are used in Okinawa.
- Over the next 5 to 10 years, a number of other notable Okinawan Karate instructors move to Japan to establish dojo. Gradually, they also adopt the Dan grading system, as well as a variation of the Judogi and obi, and other trappings that are now familiar to karateka worldwide (bowing on entering the dojo, lining up in ranks, wearing a karate-gi, rank demonstrated by belt, and various Buddhist and Shinto aspects).
- 1936 sees a "meeting of the masters", where the efforts to raise Karate's popularity and acceptance in Japan lead to a number of changes, most notably changing the kanji to read "Empty Hand". At this point (in fact, even up to after WWII), Karate is seen by the majority of Japanese society as a "foreign" art, and is looked down as being suited for thugs and criminals.
- 1945 onwards sees the US Military occupation of Japan and the Ryukyu Islands, leading to increased exposure of Karate to the US servicemen and women.
- While the Shogo titles were being used, as Karate was still seen very much as a "foreign" art, they didn't use the titles until after WWII from anything I've been able to find... there is no definitive account of the original usage that I've been able to locate.
As you can see from this list, I was discussing both the development of the ranking and shogo titles, and comparing that with the development of ranks in karate, aiming to highlight that, no, karate did not use the title "Renshi" (or any other) prior to Dan grades... in fact, they would only apply those much later... as they simply didn't have ranks or titles at all... and "Renshi" didn't exist in any form.
While that's true, the inaccuracies I was mentioning stem from being, well, inaccurate.
Here's a really interesting read I quite enjoy covering a number of aspects of karate's history... it's a bit of a longer read, but definitely worth it:
https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1038&context=jca
Well, yes... that's essentially what I said... of course, the Japanese acceptance of karate was even later, but essentially, it was being pushed as a "new" art in Japan in the 30's...
I don't think that the breakdown of the Butokukai had much to do with it, honestly... it was more about an effort to bring themselves in line with the way the art was developing in Japan itself. But, no, they did not use shogo titles. I have found no evidence of them being used at all in Okinawa prior to the 50's, and multiple accounts (including in the dissertation linked above) emphasising that there were no ranks or titles in Okinawa at all.
Well, they weren't important mainly as they didn't exist... so there's that. Your observation of the ingrained sense of respect and relative status/position is pretty much correct... the Okinawan approach was far more "individualistic" than in Japan... so that lead to a very different structure for the teaching and developing a student's understanding and approach, with each student often having a very "personalised" education.
The majority of that development stemmed from various masters emigrating to Japan from Okinawa, and an Okinawan response to these Japanese trends. Of course, much of what are now considered "Traditional Martial Arts" were created in that time period (and just after) as well.
No problem. Thanks for your serious approach to the arts as well... always appreciated.
) are subjective.
