Proof of a Higher Power

[michaeledward]

Not really going anywhere with it. Just your phrase "people have their own reasons to believe" struck me as a very self-evident statement; people aren't going to believe what they believe because of my reasons, but only their own.

Although, as I typed out the response, it occurred to me that many, perhaps, do not know why they believe what they believe. We have had the discussions before about an individual behaving one way, or another, simply because his parents behaved that way. This is often evident in religion and politics, isn't it?

But, that being said ... proof and faith really can't co-exist, can they? If you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can say to the mountain "be thou removed", but I don't see the need to change any of my topo maps too often.

Despite the geological stability, I know that those of faith need no additional evidence of a supreme power to believe as strongly as they would in the refraction of light through a prism. Additionally, I would never ask a believe to stop believing based on my understanding.

We all come to our beliefs through our own experiences, which, is what you said, which, is so obvious that sometimes, it needs to be said. ... you see?

<chuckle>

wow .. those are some pretty confusing sentences ... did I write all that .. .geesh.

 

[TigerWoman]

What happened to me and my daughter was a rock that fell on my head. It cannot be explained by science and the doctors. The asthma was there in full force, then it was not. Dismiss it as a nice story, don't believe it really happened, it doesn't matter to me if it doesn't matter to you, your loss. I do believe that God saved her. What would you think, if you begged God to save your child, a God that you didn't know was really there or not and then your daughter became miraculously well, completely well. It struck me to the bone, I had no doubt what had just happened. If I had asthma or worse, do I believe God would save me. No, I can't say I would. It is up to him, and as just a mere human being, that God created, I cannot have the audacity to truly understand God. Most of who believe in him try but do not really know. Those that struggle scientifically for "proof" still have that question in their head, what if? Those that protest and argue, why is that if you are so certain? Does the loudest voice win? Because if you are not right.. What if? TW

 

[heretic888]

you know... I think he really did stop reading this thread! hope it wasn't too much trouble to build that response heretic!

Nope. Took about 15 or so minutes of my time.

Sheesh Heretic that must have taken abit of your time. I enjoyed reading it.

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

About Pascal's wager. I don't think it was ever even called a proof of god or anything by Pascal.

No, it wasn't. But parmanjack clearly made reference to Pascal's wager (i.e., its a "better bet" to believe in God), whether intentionally or not. And, the point I was trying to make is that it is a rather flimsy argument to convince others to believe in "God" (whatever it is you view "God" to be in the first place).

Thanks for asking. It meant a lot of people have their own reasons to beleive what they do, and they do not have to prove them to the likes of heretics or athiests, etc.

Correct. You don't "have to" do anything --- in the sense of any kind of duty of obligation to validate your beliefs.

But, remember, the title of this thread is "proof of a higher power". If you make a claim for proof, then the burden of proof is on you. If you make a claim for authority, then you must provide proof to be taken seriously. And, the criteria for proof is very, very clear and obvious (hell, it doesn't even have to be material in nature, as many have falsely claimed) --- and one person's anecdotal "evidence" is not it.

I think FAITH is the thing that makes it a higher power ... and by definition 'Faith' and 'Proof' are mutually exclusive. It seems some in the religious community have difficulty with this axiom.

I dunno, bro. I sure have seen a lot of "rational" types that sure have a lot of "faith" in their scientific "proofs".

Dismiss it as a nice story, don't believe it really happened, it doesn't matter to me if it doesn't matter to you, your loss.

Its not so much a matter of "dismissing" or "disbelieving" what happened to your daughter, as it is merely discussing the nature of such anecdotal "evidence".

Those that struggle scientifically for "proof" still have that question in their head, what if?

Really?? I certainly don't.

Those that protest and argue, why is that if you are so certain? Does the loudest voice win? Because if you are not right.. What if?

I see a slightly more veiled reference to Pascal's wager. Again.

I notice the intriguing paradox in many arguments like this, though. Its as if they don't believe that they themselves are "protesting and arguing". Intriguing, indeed.

Laterz all.

 

[michaeledward]

Tigerwoman,

I believe everything happened exactly as you describe. And I would not ask you to explain it in any other way.



As to the 'What If' queston, as in 'What if I'm wrong, and there is a 'God'' .... well....

What if ... 'God' is 'Jesus', then maybe the forgiving 'God' of the New Testament will disreguard my pride, and accept me as a 'twice-born Christian' I was at 17 years old.
What if ... 'God' is the 'God' of Moses, a venegful, war-like 'God' that struck down Soddom and Gamorrah, then I shall burn in hell for all eternity.
What if ... 'God' is 'Allah', 'There is no God, but God, and Mohammed is his Prophet', then I keep holy the wrong Sabbath.
What if ... 'God is 'Yaweh', in which case, I do not have the correct bloodlines to be accepted into heaven.

This, of course, only covers a few of the descriptions of 'God' who was the creator of 'Abraham'. If we move further to the East, we begin to see different 'Gods'. The 'What if' question expands rapidly.
Is only one of these choices correct? Did you choose correctly? Are all of these religions paths toward heaven? According to their teachings, they can't be, but could 'God' be bigger than that?

For me, the answer is agnostisism or athieism. While scientifically, the answer must be Agnostic.... faith causes me to choose athieism.

Of course, now, it is as if we see through a glass, then, we may see face-to-face.

Peace - Mike

 

[Flatlander]

I cannot leave this alone. Just need to comment here - really good post Mike. Very well put.

 

[TigerWoman]

Yes, everybody makes their choices, usually at the end.
Peace to you all too and make God bless you, TW

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Yes, everybody makes their choices, usually at the end.

Ah yes, the good old "nobody's an atheist at their deathbed" claim. Humorous.

As for your daughter, I'm glad to hear that she is better. But as for whether it's proof for God, all I have to say is that correlation and causation aren't the same thing. What if she'd gotten better when you didn't pray? Or hadn't gotten better when you did?

But oh yeah, I forgot: what if's are bad.

 

[michaeledward]

Yes, everybody makes their choices, usually at the end.
Peace to you all too and make God bless you, TW

Thank you.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

reference to Pascal's wager (i.e., its a "better bet" to believe in God)

Just to clarify, Pascal's wager was that you should believe in God because if he does exist and you don't, you're going to hell, but if you believe in him and he doesn't, you really don't lose anything, right?

 

[someguy]

Thats pretty much the wager.
Glad you daughter is better.
AS to corralation and causation. Hume talked about this right. I think(probably am mistaken) that there was an example about if you throw something up in the air you don't really know it is going to come down. It's all based on experience. You could do it 100 or 10000000000000 times and its still doesn't nesseitate that it will happen. Bah this is a bad example and said badly.
To me God is just one big ? I don't know much about God but I'm going to guess there is one. I don't see a reason not to. I would rather belive in something that nothing.
Yeah I speled horibaly becase i cant access a spell checker from this computer.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Yes, everybody makes their choices, usually at the end. Peace to you all too and make God bless you, TW

Doesn't it seem a little disingenuous to combine the sort of smug "when you are dying you'll realize how wrong you are" comment with a religious blessing?

 

[michaeledward]

Doesn't it seem a little disingenuous to combine the sort of smug "when you are dying you'll realize how wrong you are" comment with a religious blessing?

That's not the way I read her comments .. and I don't think her blessing is disingenuous at all.

The Athiest

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I gotta agree with PeachMonkey on this one. "Yes, everybody makes their choices, usually at the end" sounds too similar to the doctrine that 'nobody's an atheist at their deathbed'. At least that's what I got out of it when I read it.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yeah, I'd put it up there with the old, "Unless you worship as I do, my God of peace and love will condemn you to eternal hellfire, because mine is the only true religion, have a nice day," claptrap.

 

[TigerWoman]

Doesn't it seem a little disingenuous to combine the sort of smug "when you are dying you'll realize how wrong you are" comment with a religious blessing?

smugness: belief in one's goodness
disingenuous: lacking in frankness, insincere

I am hardly "smug" about knowing whether I will go to heaven or not. That is a personal thing. Everybody has to make choices, if not now, then at the end when facing death. Either you believe your life spirit will end or that there is a hereafter thru the son of God. I do not believe in other "Gods". I believe Jesus has made it more, belief is not smugness. I wanted God to bless everyone on this board no matter how they feel toward Him, at this moment, because I believe God loves you . And I want nothing but blessings (good things-health, children, happiness, etc.) in your life.
Peachmonkey, need everything be argued? TW

 

[Feisty Mouse]

That's not the way I read her comments .. and I don't think her blessing is disingenuous at all.

Me too. Sometimes an expression of belief is just that, and not a further comment on another's belief.

 

[Lisa]

Me too. Sometimes an expression of belief is just that, and not a further comment on another's belief.

Absolutely true Feisty.

I work in a religious institution, a religion which I am not affiliated with. Everytime one of the priests blesses me for helping them or doing something kind just because I am not of their faith, should I question their reasons for doing this? No, I am polite and I thank them. For what they are bestowing on me is, in their eyes, the greatest gift they can give me and for that I am truly thankful and honored.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Perhaps if you were to explain the, "usually at the end," part, it would help.

I'll certainly take all the help and good wishes I can get, but I must say that I don't particularly care for being told that eventually, I'll see the light...especially since there are a few other choices about this whole afterlife theory than just the two described.

After all, I doubt anybody Christian would particularly enjoy having me tell them, sincerely, "I wish you the very best in life, and I know that some day you'll grow up and see through this my-dad-is-waiting for-me-in-the-sky illusion."

So, why not have some true respect for other people's beliefs, pass on the best wishes and even blessings, and let the theological certainty go? After all, in their different ways both C.S. Lewis and martial arts are clear about keeping one's treasure hidden in this world...

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Either you believe your life spirit will end or that there is a hereafter thru the son of God.

Or perhaps our souls will be reincarnated, or will travel to a new plane, or return to the spirit island from which it will return to reinhabit a new body (sure wish I remembered which tribal culture that one came from). It's hardly a choice between following God and eternal non-existent nothingness. If you can provide some proof that eternal life through Jesus is any more valid than these other explanations, by all means, present it. But there is a certain smugness in saying what basically breaks down to "it's either our way or nothing".

 

[Josh]

ya'll. quit looking for a historical Jesus. you'll never quite understand this way. Instead, look at the sacrifice for man's sin. whether you like it or not, YOU have sinned. you become FREE when you realize this and confess these sins before God. I am going to tell you right now, that God, Loves you, but He alone already knows whether you will choose to Believe In His Truth, In His Son Yeshua which means(Jehovah saves). God has planned everything for His pleasure. Jesus is God RECONCILING people BACK TO GOD. I hope none of you think you're here for no reason. Religion sucks!! It's a waste, God doesn't WANT your religion, it doesn't help. Relgion is man TRYING to achieve what God has already FREELY GIVEN. Salvation IN JESUS CHRIST!! He died for you, it's UP TO YOU NOW TO RECEIVE HIM. I don't care if you want proof or not, even Jesus said the only "proof or sign" you'll get is when the Prophet Jonah preached to the people of the region of Ninevah(somewhere in what is now the palistinian area, in there) and they REPENTED. They repented of WHAT? There sin!! You already KNOW what your sin is. You have a CONSCIENCE. That's God speaking to you.

When you lie, what does that tell you, you know you lied. Even ONE LITTLE LIE condemns you forever. It's not the Nature of God. People usually say "oh why would a Loving God condemn someone to hell"? That's crap, the real question is How could God who knew know sin, is Holy in All He does allow anything NOT of His Nature come into His presence? See? Jesus says i have come to Give Life. What is this life, "fulfillment"? Much more than that, Jesus says i have come to give them life and give it to the fullest. What more do you want?!?! Who but The Word of God aka Jesus Christ can BRING YOU TO GOD? Nobody deserves this, but what does Jesus say "For God so Loved the world(you) that He GAVE(sent to be sin for us and pay the ultimate price for that sin) that WHOEVER Believes in Him shall not perish, but have ETERNAL LIFE! Why pass this up? Do you want to keep living life the way it is? Your choice, but God knows your heart, God knows your choices before you make them. You can't escape.

You can have money, friends, education, knowledge, all this, but Jesus says "what good is it that a man gains the whole world but FORFEITS his very own soul?" Jesus created you NOT to be pagan, NOT to continue in this separation from God, but to BRING YOU INTO HIS FAMILY, THE BODY OF CHRIST(Christians). God desires you more than you know, only He can fill your heart and bless you the way you long to be. I mean, again, for those who just constantly look for proof, and facts, and historical data, you're wasting your time. You'll never find it, so LET IT GO!! BELIEVE!!! You won't regret it. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. WHY reject Him.