螳螂九手 Praying Mantis 9 Hands

Kung Fu Wang

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The following 3 partner drills all apply the "switch hands" principle - right block, left block, right punch:

- You use your right arm to block your opponent's punch,
- You then use your left arm to take over the block,
- This will free your right arm to punch back at your opponent.

1. 外三手 Outer 3 hands (you punch through your opponent's side door - outside of his arms)

- Your opponent right punches at your chest.
- You use right arm inside out block,
- use your left hand to control one top of his right elbow,
- You then right punch at his chest.
- Your opponent repeat the same.

2. 里三手 Inner 3 hands (you punch through your opponent's front door - between his arms)

- Your opponent right punches at your chest.
- You use right arm inside out block,
- use your left arm downward parry and deflect his right arm outside,
- You then right punch at his chest.
- Your opponent repeat the same.

3. 上下三手 Up/Down 3 hands (you punch below your opponent arm)

- Your opponent right punches at your chest.
- You use right arm upward block,
- use your left arm upward block again to take over the block,
- You then right punch at his chest.
- Your opponent repeat the same.

What's your opinion on these 3 simple "switch hands" partner drills?
 

Drose427

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I think I'm picturing it properly, bout you wouldnt happen to know of specific names for the drills that I could find videos on for would you?

For now I'm gonna assume Im picturing it right and if not I'll change it later:

I like these kind of drills, but instead of the "Block, change hand, strike with blocking hands" I personally prefer to go in with something like a cross/X Block or some variation that allows the same effect but in one movement as opposed to 2 in rapid succession.

My instructor does what you're describing so fast with punches or knife hands that its barely distinguishable as separate moves, so what you're describing is definitely viable.

As drills, I do like them, but I also think if 2 partners arent careful they can themselves into a specific rhythm instead of actively reacting, like using a speed bag over a reflex bag. So while I think they should be done, I think they shouldn't be done too much
 

geezer

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By googling "螳螂九手", I can find 1 clip but sometime it works and sometime it doesn't.

It's on v.youku.com

Is this what you mean? The first sequence in the following clip (0:10-0:18) was "kinda-sorta" similar to what you described, but not worked into an alternating drill:

://Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu Chow Gar Techniques - YouTube

Or perhaps this, done as a slow, repeating drill starting at 2:17:




The Wing Chun that I practice has numerous drills somewhat like what you describe, with the primary difference being that we prefer to be more direct and hit in the fewest number of moves possible. After all, unless you are very close and exerting constant forward pressure, it is pretty tough to latch onto someones striking arm. I wouldn't try that on a boxer, especially at boxing range!

Also, in FMA there is some similarity between what you describe and some of our basic Hubud drills. I'd post a clip, but right now Youtube is freezing up. Gotta get that worked out!
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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The 1st combo at 0.10 - 0.17 is exactly the "outer 3 hands".


we prefer to be more direct and hit in the fewest number of moves possible.
There are 4 categories of hand technique:

1. block with one arm and strike back with the same arm.
2. block with one arm and strike back with the other arm.
3. block with one arm, re-block with the other arm, strike back with the 1st arm (switch hands).
4. dodge without blocking and strike back.

The "3. switch hands" is only 1 of those 4. IMO, you can use the "switch hands" to confuse your opponent big time.

You can see this is used at 0.50 and 1.05. It can be very fast.


 
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geezer

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The 1st combo at 0.10 - 0.17 is exactly the "outer 3 hands".



There are 4 categories of hand technique:

1. block with one arm and strike back with the same arm.
2. block with one arm and strike back with the other arm.
3. block with one arm, re-block with the other arm, strike back with the 1st arm (switch hands).
4. dodge without blocking and strike back.

The "3. switch hands" is only 1 of those 4. IMO, you can use the "switch hands" to confuse your opponent big time.

You can see this is used at 0.50 and 1.05. It can be very fast.



Yes, Bruce's Pak-Da to break Bob Wall's nose is a classic example of the hand switch you are talking about. But this is not contrived to confuse the opponent. The Pak is used to free the already spring-loaded lead hand so it can strike the target directly. In other words it is done for the sake of efficiency. On the other hand, the southern mantis drill could be seen as a more round-about way to set up the hit.
So a typical WC/WT approach would look more like the stuff at the beginning of the following clip (FYI this is not from the assn. I belong to, but it's similar):


To illistrate this efficiency issue a bit more clearly check out this variation from FMA/Eskrima/Arnis/Kali:


You will notice that most of the drills involve three parries before striking back. That's not efficient. However, when applied it can be very efficient since each segment can be streamlined into a parry and simultaneously delivered direct hit. Or the parries can be limb distructions or "gunting". So IMO if you look beyond the surface, it's all part of the same picture.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Yes, Bruce's Pak-Da to break Bob Wall's nose is a classic example of the hand switch you are talking about. But this is not contrived to confuse the opponent. The Pak is used to free the already spring-loaded lead hand so it can strike the target directly. In other words it is done for the sake of efficiency.
Agree that the "switch hands" should be applied more in "offense" than in "defense". When you apply it in "defense", it can be seen as "2 blocks - one block after another block" which is not efficiency.

When you punch, your opponent blocks, you use the other hand to remove his block so your attacking hand can continue. The football uses this strategy quite nicely. You hold the ball and running, one guy from the other team tries to stop you, one guy from your own team will deal with that guy, so you can continue your running. When you use it in "offense", it's just 1 block and not 2 blocks.
 

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I think hand drills like that are great. I know very little about Southern Praying Mantis, but what I have seen of it is very good, just a tad bit more workable and flexible than WC down through the Yip Man lineages. Pan Nam Wing Chun has some very flowing two person hand drills, and it looks like the Vietnamese WC legacy might include these types of drills. Again, by no means an expert here, just what I have seen on YouTube.

If I am standing directly in front a person, and that person launches a right punch at my face or sternum, and I guide it out of the way with my right hand/wrist, guiding it to my right, I label it an "outside cross parry", because my right has to go "outside" of his limb and I am crossing my own (and my opponents) centerline.

Rolls off the tongue nicely, that's all.

If, against the same right-handed attack, I use my left hand on the inside of his punch, guding it to my the left, I suppose I could call it an "inside same-side parry". Of course, as all ma people know (especially WC maestros like Geezer) I am in trouble with my opponents other fist, the left fist, solidly arriving at my face a nano-second or two later. I darn well better have taken into account what I am going to do about that before it arrives at my waiting nostrils or some such other important skeletal locations I would like to keep reasonably intact.

Well-thought out, regularly practiced at various speeds, two person drills from the various WC lineages, SPM and Filipino Hubud Lubud are all an important part of any martial arts curriculum. Not the be-all and end-all mind you, however I would say a necessity.

By the way, Leung Ting of Wing Tsun fame published a book with Lee Kam Wing called "Seven Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu", in which the PM style is not communicated with forms but by two person drills. I found in on Plum Publications site.

Gotta Run
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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"outside cross parry", ...
The "采 (Cai) - out cross parry" is also heavily used in the long fist system. I agree that it may be too slow to be used to block a fast right punch. This is why I like the

- praying mantis left "挂 (Gua) - comb hair", or
- WC left "Tan Shou".

Even the praying mantis left "挂 (Gua) - comb hair" from outside in will work fine.

If my opponent then punches me with left fist, I'll do the same. This way I can keep both my arms "inside" of both of his arms. Old saying said, "Fight to be inside and not fight to be outside. Fight to be on top and not fight to be on bottom".
 
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qianfeng

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I think hand drills like that are great. I know very little about Southern Praying Mantis, but what I have seen of it is very good, just a tad bit more workable and flexible than WC down through the Yip Man lineages. Pan Nam Wing Chun has some very flowing two person hand drills, and it looks like the Vietnamese WC legacy might include these types of drills. Again, by no means an expert here, just what I have seen on YouTube.

If I am standing directly in front a person, and that person launches a right punch at my face or sternum, and I guide it out of the way with my right hand/wrist, guiding it to my right, I label it an "outside cross parry", because my right has to go "outside" of his limb and I am crossing my own (and my opponents) centerline.

Rolls off the tongue nicely, that's all.

If, against the same right-handed attack, I use my left hand on the inside of his punch, guding it to my the left, I suppose I could call it an "inside same-side parry". Of course, as all ma people know (especially WC maestros like Geezer) I am in trouble with my opponents other fist, the left fist, solidly arriving at my face a nano-second or two later. I darn well better have taken into account what I am going to do about that before it arrives at my waiting nostrils or some such other important skeletal locations I would like to keep reasonably intact.

Well-thought out, regularly practiced at various speeds, two person drills from the various WC lineages, SPM and Filipino Hubud Lubud are all an important part of any martial arts curriculum. Not the be-all and end-all mind you, however I would say a necessity.

By the way, Leung Ting of Wing Tsun fame published a book with Lee Kam Wing called "Seven Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu", in which the PM style is not communicated with forms but by two person drills. I found in on Plum Publications site.

Gotta Run

Southern preying mantis? Praying mantis nine hands a long fist drill?
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Here is the praying mantis right "挂 (Gua) - comb hair". After you have used it to block your opponent's left punch, you usually strike back your right palm on his face. It can also be used to put a "head lock" on your opponent since your right arm is inside his left arm.

comb_hair.jpg
 

qianfeng

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Here is the praying mantis right "挂 (Gua) - comb hair". After you have used it to block your opponent's left punch, you usually strike back your right palm on his face. It can also be used to put a "head lock" on your opponent since your right arm is inside his left arm.

comb_hair.jpg

Kind of like Ba ji Liang Yi Ding?

 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Kind of like Ba ji Liang Yi Ding?

You can use it to

- protect your head,
- deflect a incoming head punch,
- strike your elbow at your opponent's chest,
- strike elbow at your opponent shoulder and then give him a head lock,
- ...

The "挂 (Gua) - comb hair" is a nice skill to have no matter what system that you may train.
 

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The following 3 partner drills all apply the "switch hands" principle - right block, left block, right punch:
1. 外三手 Outer 3 hands (you punch through your opponent's side door - outside of his arms)
2. 里三手 Inner 3 hands (you punch through your opponent's front door - between his arms)
3. 上下三手 Up/Down 3 hands (you punch below your opponent arm)
What's your opinion on these 3 simple "switch hands" partner drills?

This Technics originally was in Cheng (程) family from Fushan (福山), ShenYang(沈阳). Cheng Dongge (程东阁) has taught Ma Fengtu(马凤图) and others - HuFengsan (胡奉三), HaoMingjiu (郝鸣九), YangJunfeng (杨俊峰)...
 
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