pragmatism of archaic weaponry

[Brother John]

I was just wondering what your take is on learning to use archaic weapons in realistic combat.
Swords, kama, kusarigama (sp?), kyutso-shoge (also sp?), blow guns, shuriken, yari....etc.

Now I have nothing against learning these things, and I know that true Ninpo will adapt and learn to master all manner of weaponry that is very useful/practical.... knife, hanbo, manriki, staff, yawara, rope, hand guns, rifles...etc. But what about the older things? What is the benefit?

I find them interesting, don't get me wrong. I've studied some Iado and find it very fun.

Just wondering what the current thought is out in ninjadom.

Your Brother
John

 

[Bujingodai]

Well, these weapons as a norm also have application. As in the shoge, it is often that you may have nearby or an extension cord.
The traditionalism of course applies. Mind you there are weapons that I really am not into Yari for one , yet it has application I just can't get into.
The sword, though the likelyhood you won't be walking around with one, the moves from some schools can be applied empty handed. Also can correct some of the Taijutsu errors.

Just rambling

 

[Greg Chapman]

I think i do it just because its part of the art i do, i have never really questioned it as i think its an enjoyable part of it.

 

[pknox]

I believe that weapons training of any type helps the practitioner learn about proper distancing, the importance of maintaining focus, and also adds intensity and "seriousness", for lack of a better word, to the training. When learned properly, these skills translate to unarmed training as well.

 

[Bushigokoro9]

Brother John,

To back up pknox statments in which I totally agree with, studing certain weapons such as the sword reinforces good taijutsu. Mia, balance and all the other aspects can assist the individual in or during a conflict (lack of a better word) All weapons have a certain natural ability on how they are used. The weapon is an extension of the body. One should not have to do a certain technique differently because one is holding a weapon. The weapon moves in harmony with the body. As stated before ceratin weapons have particular attrbutes to them. One must know the attributes. For example : When praticing muto dori a lot of the techniques can be applied from the katana to the pistol. Bare with me! Both weapons are worn most of the time on the hip. Both weapons are hand held and the danger zone travels in a straight line. Sowrds and bullets do not travel straight then turn 90 degrees. When one understands muto dori using mia alot of the aspects become the same. All it is is a manifestation of proper taijutsu. Now with that being said one must also be aware of the weapons attributes! I am sure that I will probably have to define (not defend) this statement . For the sake of keeping my post short I will leave it at that for now.

Best Regards,
Jeff

 

[NYCRonin]

Traditional weapons study is a link to ones heritage, a way to touch the experience of your martial and spiritual ancestors. They also teach valuable (and very plastically adaptable) principles of movement that are applicable to modern weapons - standard or improvised.
The overall study of a historical art - even one as pragmatic as this one - includes such traditional teachings.
If it is not what you are interested in - the 'I only want what I think works in todays society' mindset - is to miss a wealth of knowledge and experience that MIGHT see relevance in times to come, in situations unforseen presently.

In Ninjustsu, such study has many uses - and will become clear in time - for any practitioner who hangs around long enough.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by NYCRonin
If it is not what you are interested in - the 'I only want what I think works in todays society' mindset - is to miss a wealth of knowledge and experience that MIGHT see relevance in times to come, in situations unforseen presently.

Indeed. One can approach it as ballet--movement with meaning but not with practical application--as a cultural artifact, as an historical treasure of knowledge, or as something from which one can gain practical application and insight at the cost of some effort. These viewpoints are not mutually exclusive!

As for me, iaido may have been my favorite martial art ever. I wish I could have stuck with it.

 

[stickarts]

I just learn them because i like them!!
Much of my time is doing things that i have to do. i like spending some time doing what i just enjoy doing! no more practical reason for me than that is needed!! I already have lots of practical stuff. Also, as an instructor, learning the weapons gives me more that i can teach which i also enjoy doing!!

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by arnisador
Indeed. One can approach it as ballet--movement with meaning but not with practical application--as a cultural artifact, as an historical treasure of knowledge, or as something from which one can gain practical application and insight at the cost of some effort. These viewpoints are not mutually exclusive!

As for me, iaido may have been my favorite martial art ever. I wish I could have stuck with it.

Would this be the "folk art" aspect?

Just wondering, and nothing wrong with that either.
Thanks
Your Brother
John

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Brother John
Would this be the "folk art" aspect?

Why not? If people preserve ancient Chinese dances, theatre traditions, and other such cultural items, why not ancient Chinese martial arts along with the other arts? Ditto for Japanese, etc.

It's the same with thos practice SCA, and even fencing--they're preserving something from Western (martial) heritage.

We always think of the martial arts--but people also study the martial arts (iaido, Wushu, etc.).

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by arnisador
Why not? If people preserve ancient Chinese dances, theatre traditions, and other such cultural items, why not ancient Chinese martial arts along with the other arts? Ditto for Japanese, etc.

It's the same with thos practice SCA, and even fencing--they're preserving something from Western (martial) heritage.

We always think of the martial arts--but people also study the martial arts (iaido, Wushu, etc.).

I actually enjoy the "Folk art" aspect of the martial arts quite a bit. Nothing wrong with looking at it like that, and I don't think it takes away from the "usefulness" of what is learned. For instance I think it'd be great to learn the Halbard. Now I'm never going to ride on a horse and play headhunter polo on mine enemies :rofl: but I think that the movements would be good for building power, balance and improving movements like the hip throw and others that employ such torque.

Thanks for the input everyone.
Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Bushigokoro9
Brother John,

To back up pknox statments in which I totally agree with, studing certain weapons such as the sword reinforces good taijutsu. Mia, balance and all the other aspects can assist the individual in or during a conflict (lack of a better word) All weapons have a certain natural ability on how they are used. The weapon is an extension of the body. One should not have to do a certain technique differently because one is holding a weapon. The weapon moves in harmony with the body. As stated before ceratin weapons have particular attrbutes to them. One must know the attributes. For example : When praticing muto dori a lot of the techniques can be applied from the katana to the pistol. Bare with me! Both weapons are worn most of the time on the hip. Both weapons are hand held and the danger zone travels in a straight line. Sowrds and bullets do not travel straight then turn 90 degrees. When one understands muto dori using mia alot of the aspects become the same. All it is is a manifestation of proper taijutsu. Now with that being said one must also be aware of the weapons attributes! I am sure that I will probably have to define (not defend) this statement . For the sake of keeping my post short I will leave it at that for now.

Best Regards,
Jeff

My Brother Jeff-

Reading your obviously well thought out perspectives makes me all the more eager to meet you.
I appreciate what you have to say concerning this. If I read you rightly you are saying that certain weapons that fit well in the Feudal Era of Japan translate well to other weapons that would be more practical today; or at least engender certain qualities that enhances ones physical skills all around (coordination/balance...etc.)
Thank you.

To continue this very interesting conversation topic, let this newcommer ask another question on these lines:

What weapons (from the traditional Ninpo arsenal) do you see as being the most usefull/pragmatic for today's environment? Which ones are less pragmatic?

Thanks, hoping to spark even more interesting conversation.
Your Brother
John

 

[MisterMike]

What weapons (from the traditional Ninpo arsenal) do you see as being the most usefull/pragmatic for today's environment? Which ones are less pragmatic?

Usefull today would be the Tanto and the hanbo.

Knife and stick seem to have survived for centuries and they are readily available today.

I guess it depends on what environment you refer.

 

[Bushigokoro9]

Brother John,

Without going into a lot of detail the simple answer is: all of them and again none of them. A weapon is only a tool. Needed for that instance and let it pass.

The questions is what will learning this weapon do for my understanding of the martial arts. This leads to another question what is the purpose of Martial Arts. We can go on and on but I will try to stay centered on your question alone.

If you understand how that weapon and the attributes of that weapon work with and in harmony with nature (also taijutsu) then anything will work. True, blades, sticks, chains etc..... will always be around. But studying those weapons without a deeper meaning or understanding of its influence on how the body moves with those natural attributes is cheating yourself. The same goes with other weapons that are not previalnt in today's society. Principles never change! As stated above, understanding the attributes and knowing the principles then anything you use will be pragmatic. An example is the sword and the gun, The chain and the shirt on your back. A net and the sunday paper. The list goes on and on. The understanding is not the actual object that is in your hand. Understand princples!

Here is a hint that I am sure you are well aware of : the second somebody picks up a weapon and especally how they move with the weapon you can gauge how much somebody knows. A true martial artist will never reveal anything to you. If you see no weapon then assume that they have a weapon. Stop! I started to drift again, sorry folks , lets get back to the thread.

A breif example would be, no lets stay with the sword. As stated before the sword's danger zone is a straight line (3D) within each single move. The sword is a great tool to teach timing and distance among other things. When one becomes aware of time and distance one can control speed. Speed is just an outcome of time and distance (mia) When one understand how to control those variables one can also control the conflict. The person who controls the conflict puts their adversary in a postion where he has to break not harmony but the laws of nature. One forces his adversary to move but he also can not afford not to move. Either way the adversary losses. This dynamic is just another example of what can be seen when studying the sword. Now that dynamic is also seen in alot of other examples as well. But the sword is a great learning tool. Now we all know that there are many other lessons with the sword but to save time we can discuss those points on another thread or this one if everybody else agrees.

One last point. A lot of martial artists that I have spoken with always say that when you attack you break harmony and then have lead yourself into defeat. I say that they are wrong. As long as you understand the laws of nature and do not break those laws then you will not be defeated. Is there not disharmony in nature? (Now at the same time I am not saying to go around and attack people).

Takamatsu Sensei once said (I will paraphase) "The enemy who is against the laws of nature will lose his battle before he begins to fight. The first priority to the Ninja is to win without fighting, and that remains the Way."

To set up the situation in which the only outcome that happened was the only way it could of happened. The poor SOB broke those laws of nature and lost in which those conditions might have already been set up all along. Is that the ture purpose of studying martial arts?????? NIN!!!!!






Talk to you later,
Jeff

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Being able to adapt the "classical" weapon to modern warfare is the essence of understanding your art. Mister Mike mentioned the Hanbo. I have used hanbo and well as kenjutsu techniques when employing the riot batton. This also includes my arts "rope tying" art using the bo/hanbo. It all depends on your situation and what your job is. Broom handles are very versitile when employed as a bo or yari. Could you use a roofing hammer like a kama? Sure.

I definitely have to agree with the others who mention the renforcement of Taijutsu.

My 2 cents

 

[arnisador]

SCA (basically) in Japan:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fl20030504a3.htm

It includes some comparisons between Japanese and Western traditional weapons arts.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Bushigokoro9
Brother John,


If you understand how that weapon and the attributes of that weapon work with and in harmony with nature (also taijutsu) then anything will work. True, blades, sticks, chains etc..... will always be around. But studying those weapons without a deeper meaning or understanding of its influence on how the body moves with those natural attributes is cheating yourself. The same goes with other weapons that are not previalnt in today's society. Principles never change!


One last point. A lot of martial artists that I have spoken with always say that when you attack you break harmony and then have lead yourself into defeat. I say that they are wrong. As long as you understand the laws of nature and do not break those laws then you will not be defeated. Is there not disharmony in nature? (Now at the same time I am not saying to go around and attack people).

Takamatsu Sensei once said (I will paraphase) "The enemy who is against the laws of nature will lose his battle before he begins to fight. The first priority to the Ninja is to win without fighting, and that remains the Way."
Talk to you later,
Jeff

I really like what you have to say Jeff.
More than a little thought provoking!
Thank you!

Your Brother
John