Practicing with the proper intent?

[Argus]

As some of you may have picked up by now, I'm a huge fan of the Wong Shun Leung lineage. Besides placing a great emphasis on the core concepts and principles, I find that they tend to practice with a different energy and intent than is common in most schools (including my own).

Here are a some examples of what I am talking about:

And, some Chi-sau:

This sort of practice with "proper" intent is something that is emphasized in Historic European Sword Arts. But I find it often isn't present in Wing Chun or Karate schools.

I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts on this. Does your school work to avoid letting drills and chisau resemble a "game of tag" more than actual combat? Do you notice any detrimental habits from frequently practicing at a long range, and without proper intent?

 

[seasoned]

Yes, train the way you want to react, because you Will react to the way you train.........

 

[yak sao]

This is very much the approach we take in WT. I trained originally under sifu Emin Boztepe, but from what I've seen, it's consistent throughout WT.

 

[Takai]

Yes, train the way you want to react, because you Will react to the way you train.........

That is a pretty good summation. Some people have an illusion that when they really need their skills that will rise to some great epic level. (To many Kung Fu movies I think) The reality is that (under stress especially) you always falls back on your training. So train how you want to fight.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Do you notice any detrimental habits from frequently practicing at a long range, and without proper intent?

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training." -Archilochus, poet and soldier, circa 650 B.C.

 

[Argus]

Interesting.

Well, I'm a bit late in replying, but in light of all the positive responses, I'd like to ask another question.

In light of this consensus, how do you all feel about this kind of chisau?

There isn't much forward energy, and each party is very reluctant to give the other too much energy, or step in with attacks. This isn't the best example that I could find, but it's more in that direction than, for example, the videos I posted above, and features two prevalent authorities on WC.

This seems to be common in many schools, and people who practice chisau this way are admittedly very good at it. But at what point does it become too much of a game of "playing with the hands" where neither party is really learning to attack? Is it possible to become "too good" at chi-sau, in this light?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Argus


OK, I am a Taijiquan guy and not a Wing Chun guy, or at least I don't think I am but I have trained in bot lineages in this thread

Leung Sheng and Ip Ching and although I was personally happier and more comfortable in with the Leung Sheung group I have to say there is a heck of a lot of energy in the Ip Ching and Sam Kwok Chi Sau, or at least I am seeing a heck of a lot of energy, iIt just more relaxed than the OP examples.

By the way the shifu of the Leunng Sheung group was the most relaxed and natural Wing Chun player I have ever seen

 

[Argus]

Eh, it's not the best example. But the difference in approach is kind of noticeable, yes?

I wouldn't say the difference is all about relaxation, or even energy (admittedly, that clip was a poor example in regards to energy). One just seems to have more emphasis on "attacking"? In the first clip, for example, you can really see "lat sau jik chung" at work; the moment a hole appears, he's in, and at the proper range to strike and control. There's not a whole lot of playing with the hands, and the focus of the drill seems much more straight forward. It's sort of a stark contrast to me.

I'll ask a better question; what differences do you observe?

 

[Xue Sheng]

The OP clips are more tense (more visible muscular usage) and more aggressive and the Ip Ching clip is more relaxed and less aggressive. You can see it in their necks, their arms and their movements.

I mean no offense by this and both the OP clip and the Ip Ching clip show a lot of skill, but I would say, IMO, it seems more natural in the Ip Ching and Sam Kwok clip, but then this is my opinion and I have already stated I am not a Wing Chun guy so take it for what it is worth

 

[Argus]

Well, in regards to relaxedness, I'm inclined to take a taichi guy's word for it!

You said that the WSL instructor you had the chance to train with was very soft. Did you notice any other differences in approach?

I'm sure all of this depends as much on the instructor as it does the lineage, but I definitely see certain tendencies among certain lineages.


PS. Just to be clear, I do like Ip Ching and Samuel Kwok's chisau. I don't think anyone could argue that it's bad, which is part of the reason I posted it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just reread your first post and I just noticed you said "Wong Shun Leung" not "Leung Sheung" so there is a big difference right there...sorry, my bad... he was in the Leung Sheung lineage not Wong Shun Leung. I need to be more careful when reading these things.

But to answer your question

He was not soft, just relaxed and natural, his seems to pproach to Wing Chun like most of us approach going for a walk...it is just what he does. But his personality is rather relaxed and easy going as well, he just seems to be calm all the time. He also trained with Augustine Fong before moving to my area and training in the Leung Sheung lineage. I do not know how long he trained with Fong but he trained with a student of Leung Sheung for several years.