Patterns with high kicks that students can't do

[Acronym]

It’s entirely possible to do either of those. They are both more effective when they are both present.

Merely asserting it won't bring more insight. So a flexible person that struggles with strength usually fails at dynamic flexibility and conversely a strong person with mediocre flexibility excels at dynamic flexibility but struggles with static?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Merely asserting it won't bring more insight. So a flexible person that struggles with strength usually fails at dynamic flexibility and conversely a strong person with mediocre flexibility excels at dynamic flexibility but struggles with static?

I was just responding to your post, which seemed to assert it's not possible to develop strength without flexibility, nor vice-versa.

If no attention is given to flexibility, it's possible to develop strength in the specific exercises without good ROM. And if someone works hard on flexibility, they may have an impressive ROM (static, dynamic, or both) without ever developing any significant strength.

 

[Acronym]

I And if someone works hard on flexibility, they may have an impressive ROM (static, dynamic, or both) without ever developing any significant strength.

What is your definition of strength in this regard?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What is your definition of strength in this regard?

An easy example would be lifting more weight in a specific exercise.

 

[Acronym]

An easy example would be lifting more weight in a specific exercise.

Huh? This is about kicking as it relates to martial arts.

 

[dvcochran]

[


I don’t understand this... From what I've been told, flexibility and strength go hand in hand. You can't have strength without flexibility and you can't have flexibility without strength.

Not correct. You need to hang around with some body builders. Extremely stiff and inflexible. Gymnast on the other hand are extremely flexible. Almost unnatural at times.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Huh? This is about kicking as it relates to martial arts.

Kicking power and strength are two different things. The person you were replying to was talking about strength in (I assume) her legs.

 

[Acronym]

Not correct. You need to hang around with some body builders. Extremely stiff and inflexible. Gymnast on the other hand are extremely flexible. Almost unnatural at times.

That is a bad example since bodybuilders specialize in spamming isolation excersies, not functional strength training.

 

[Acronym]

Kicking power and strength are two different things. The person you were replying to was talking about strength in (I assume) her legs.

The person I was replying to claimed to have the appropriate flexibility yet could not kick head height, and claimed this was due to a lack of strength

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The person I was replying to claimed to have the appropriate flexibility yet could not kick head height, and claimed this was due to a lack of strength

That would be either a lack of leg or core strength then. But you're point that you need strength for flexibility, is untrue unless you're considering the bare mininum for strength, in which case that's true of ant activity.

 

[Acronym]

That would be either a lack of leg or core strength then. But you're point that you need strength for flexibility, is untrue unless you're considering the bare mininum for strength, in which case that's true of ant activity.

It makes no sense how an actively training martial artist would lack strength for the very thing he trains for and that he tried for half a decade to correct, yet claims to be flexible.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It makes no sense how an actively training martial artist would lack strength for the very thing he trains for and that he tried for half a decade to correct, yet claims to be flexible.

So two things. 1: Serietah is a she. 2: I agree, but that's not what I was responding to. Just what strength is.

I'm assuming like I said that it's a core issue, but I would think that could be fixed by now with core strength training unless there's also like a muscular/biological/medical issue going on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Huh? This is about kicking as it relates to martial arts.

Perhaps you meant power, rather than strength? If so, I'd agree that power and flexibility pretty much go together. I suppose it'd be possible to develop flexibility without any increase in power if technique is sloppy, but that's marginal.

 

[dvcochran]

I could never do any of those things and I can still kick high

If this is remotely true, then you head must be level with your hips or lower to get your foot head level. That is the only way it could work anatomically. The result would be a poor, dysfunction kick so, no you cannot do a head level kick.

 

[dvcochran]

That is a bad example since bodybuilders specialize in spamming isolation exercises, not functional strength training.

You are the one talking in absolutes.
I think we can all agree there is a relationship between strength and flexibility within context. The same can be said for genetics and strength or genetics and flexibility, and strength or flexibility and lifestyle. The list goes on.
We have had many people make the transition from dance training MA training. They are exceptionally flexible however it is a very different kind of flexibility. From years of training their body has been programmed to move certain way and hold certain positions. I have yet to meet a dancer that did not have a challenging time with footwork, punches and kicking geometry.
Back to your argument, they are quite strong and very flexible. But when you but that in a different environment it doesn't account for very much.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If this is remotely true, then you head must be level with your hips or lower to get your foot head level. That is the only way it could work anatomically. The result would be a poor, dysfunction kick so, no you cannot do a head level kick.

Not necessarily true. I have never been able to touch my toes while sitting (legs straight), and never got anywhere near a split. For many years, a side kick, round kick, or front kick to the head were fairly easy. My dynamic flexibility has always been MUCH better than my static.

 

[dvcochran]

Not necessarily true. I have never been able to touch my toes while sitting (legs straight), and never got anywhere near a split. For many years, a side kick, round kick, or front kick to the head were fairly easy. My dynamic flexibility has always been MUCH better than my static.

I can see that. Factoring in momentum could allow for the leg to go higher. I would question to what degree of control a person would have over the member if counting on momentum to get the foot head level. The effective vs. non effective argument.
In this context, do you think there is a higher probability of injury from over extension or out of control movements?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can see that. Factoring in momentum could allow for the leg to go higher. I would question to what degree of control a person would have over the member if counting on momentum to get the foot head level. The effective vs. non effective argument.
In this context, do you think there is a higher probability of injury from over extension or out of control movements?

Not necessarily for our-of-control movement, as it’s not really a momentum thing. Those kicks were easy for me. Overextension is a real issue when you are near your limits. I could kick perhaps 4-6” higher than my own head, so kicking at my head height left some room for error. But kicking higher (a taller person’s head) would have been too close to my limit.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Not necessarily true. I have never been able to touch my toes while sitting (legs straight), and never got anywhere near a split. For many years, a side kick, round kick, or front kick to the head were fairly easy. My dynamic flexibility has always been MUCH better than my static.

While I can still touch my toes, I never was able to get to a full split, despite almost daily stretching, yet, like you, was able to accurately kick to the head. I am certain my pelvis was not constructed to do splits, but then how the head kicks? Perhaps muscle powered momentum, along with relaxation and proper technique were responsible.

Anyway, for me the question is moot as head kicks are no longer part of my bag of tools. No great loss though, as my other tools and technique are well able to compensate. Must admit that head kicks are useful in tournament competition to help spread out the opponent's defense (much like an occasional long pass in football) but not essential for non-TKD bouts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

While I can still touch my toes, I never was able to get to a full split, despite almost daily stretching, yet, like you, was able to accurately kick to the head. I am certain my pelvis was not constructed to do splits, but then how the head kicks? Perhaps muscle powered momentum, along with relaxation and proper technique were responsible.

Anyway, for me the question is moot as head kicks are no longer part of my bag of tools. No great loss though, as my other tools and technique are well able to compensate. Must admit that head kicks are useful in tournament competition to help spread out the opponent's defense (much like an occasional long pass in football) but not essential for non-TKD bouts.

My only theory has to do with antagonistic muscle relaxation. When a muscle is used, a relaxation signal is apparently sent to the antagonistic muscle, which signal would be absent in static stretch.