Palm Beach County...Florida

[ToraSame]

Ninjutsu class starting
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Want to learn the art of the ninja?
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Want to learn true self-defense?
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Want to learn how to recognize danger and avoid it?
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All this with no contracts, and only $10 dollars a class?
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Then call Sensei Bill Covington @ 561-585-0483 to get signed up today!!!!!
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Or e-mail cloudgodd@stis.net
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Classes are held on Saturdays, and Sundays
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Classes available for:
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Ages 8- 12 years 10am – 12 PM
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Ages 13- Adult 1pm – 3pm
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Also visit www.warriorquest.com for more information
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Click the Kurai Kotori Tradition(click Here)link in first paragraph.
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[ShaolinWolf]

Why, OH, WHY does it have to be in Palm Beach?! why not Palm Coast?!...I'm in Daytona Beach area, well, rather Volusia County, and I'm like 45-60 minutes from Palm Coast...Not fair! LOL...oh well, Good luck.

And the lack of MA schools around Volusia County is disturbing in itself! I mean, this is Daytona Beach Area, home of Bike Week, NASCAR, and the Beach...

 

[Don Roley]

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=16243&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

 

[ToraSame]

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=16243&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Mr Roley,


I first want to say that I am glad you posted that link, why you might ask because it down the WQI dojo, no because it shows how little knowledge the discussion has, first of all I am the instructor of the school opening in Palm Beach County, so lets get that out there, second I Have known Jonin Mark Grove since he started before it was WQI, it was just simply called Kurai Kotori uji Ninjutsu, the biggest point made on the post had to do with linage, to be honest there is none, Mark created the art himself....oh and about the stuntman, he did not become a stuntman till he was training Ninjutsu almost 15 years...Also the Samurai is taught by a different instructor, as is the KunoichiJutsu...so that being said, and all being truth...I also want to give a quote from Hatsumi himself "that if it works then it's ninjutsu." so that being said, and trust me it works...I welcome you to join us in Florida for a class, or fly out to Denver, for a class, hell stay for two...then please come back to this web site, and voice your option...oh and bye the way Jonin Mark Grove has been teaching Ninjutsu longer than most of your Kans sensei have studied so you decide...

 

[Don Roley]

second I Have known Jonin Mark Grove since he started before it was WQI, it was just simply called Kurai Kotori uji Ninjutsu, the biggest point made on the post had to do with linage, to be honest there is none, Mark created the art himself....

So his story about being awarded a warrior name was a lie on his part? As well as the stories about being taught by a teacher of the Genin ryu?

And if he has had no training in ninjutsu before starting his own style of ninjutsu, then I guess that I can start my own Bando, Copiera or Hsing-i style.

Why bother calling it ninjutsu if he knows so little about the art as it exists in Japan? Damn, most people I know teaching the art at least bother to learn it. But I guess that holding such standards is not popular nowdays.

I also want to give a quote from Hatsumi himself "that if it works then it's ninjutsu."

Bet you can't give an exact quote and site the source.

so that being said, and trust me it works...

Have you killed someone with a sword? Have you killed anyone? Can you show me some sort of proof that your art is more effective than Tae Bo?

But you are teaching the use of the sword, correct? And Tae Bo has been used to save people from date rape, among other things.

I welcome you to join us in Florida for a class, or fly out to Denver, for a class, hell stay for two...then please come back to this web site, and voice your option...oh and bye the way Jonin Mark Grove has been teaching Ninjutsu longer than most of your Kans sensei have studied so you decide...

Ashida Kim has been teaching "ninjutsu" longer than most x-kan teachers. And probably longer than Mark Grove. So, I guess if you want to be consistent with your logiv, we can say that Ashida Kim is more respectable than Mark Grove. Heck, lets ask Ashida if what he does is effective and then use the definition you say Hatsumi gives. Do you think Ashida or his followers are going to say that their stuff is not effective?

And I enjoy digs at me that try to hint that I will not face people whom I have problems with. Nice try. I have little reason to fly out just to see you, but that fact that your group has no experience in JAPANESE ninjutsu is not relevent to me seeing you or not, does it?

The ninjutsu folder is in the Japanese arts section of martialtalk. Mark Grove seems to have had no link to Japan or Japanese ninjutsu before setting himself up as the head of his own ninjutsu system. It just seems strange to me that people like the term ninjutsu so much that they want ot use it, but don't bother to learn the real stuff you find in Japan.

If you excuse me, I am going to go form my own style of Kali.

 

[Cryozombie]

Have you killed someone with a sword? Have you killed anyone? Can you show me some sort of proof that your art is more effective than Tae Bo?

But you are teaching the use of the sword, correct? And Tae Bo has been used to save people from date rape, among other things.

Don... Im confused by that statement. First, I'd like to point out That *I* have never killed anyone with a sword. I do take for granted that my art is more effective than Tae Bo. My Instructor teaches use of the sword. HE has never killed anyone with a Sword. Come to think of it, do you know, has Soke ever Killed anyone with a sword? If not, Does this mean that there is no effective proof that what I am learning in the Bujinkan works?

The ninjutsu folder is in the Japanese arts section of martialtalk. Mark Grove seems to have had no link to Japan or Japanese ninjutsu before setting himself up as the head of his own ninjutsu system. It just seems strange to me that people like the term ninjutsu so much that they want ot use it, but don't bother to learn the real stuff you find in Japan.

If you excuse me, I am going to go form my own style of Kali.

It is, but it also states that all schools of Ninpo are welcome... it does not state "All Traditional KAN schools of Ninpo"

Personally, the difference I see between this organization and CHAK, is that this guy says, "I have created this art and called it Ninjutsu" and CHAK saying "I have the true Ninjutsu passed down thru the ages" blah blah blah...

If I want to earn a Blackbelt in Hapkido, one in Taekwondo, and one in Kenpo and teach a style blending those together with the name "Combat JKD"... Just means my choice of names is stupid, it doesnt mean my art is bad.

I've read a lot of your posts here and on Ebudo, and you have a lot of valuable insight and I enjoy a lot of your information, but you are also very agressive in a lot of your posts. Ive seen you tear people down just for offering an opinion that differs from yours, or from knowlage that you have that is contrary to their belief.

I'm going to ask you, respectfully, if you could possibly tone some of that agression down... at least here. I do not want to be afraid to post a question here for fear that instead of answers, I will get a figurative board to the head. I have been thru that on other forums, and I find it difficult to learn from what people are saying if I have to pick tidbits of information out of pages of conflict. IMHO, That is one of the benefits to MT over so many other martial arts forums I have frequented in the past. And I am primarily here to learn from those of you who have more experiance than I.

Thank you.

 

[Don Roley]

Don... Im confused by that statement. First, I'd like to point out That *I* have never killed anyone with a sword. I do take for granted that my art is more effective than Tae Bo. My Instructor teaches use of the sword. HE has never killed anyone with a Sword. Come to think of it, do you know, has Soke ever Killed anyone with a sword? If not, Does this mean that there is no effective proof that what I am learning in the Bujinkan works?

My point is that the sword stuff that these guys do has never been tested in combat nor based on proven traditions of sword combat. The kata and such that you learn in Japan are based on actual realities that have been proven to work. So without personal experience in using a sword to kill someone or basing your teachings off of the traditions that have survived going against others armed with swords, how the heck can you say with conviction that what you do is effective?

And you take for granted that what you do is more effective than Tae Bo. Is it? Based on what? The assurances of your teacher? EVERY guy who is teaching martial arts says that what they do is effective, even the guys that teach stuff that makes me laugh so hard milk comes out of my nose. In mny case, I trust what we do in nagase dojo based on the people who have come back to thank Nagase for teaching them something they used to save their lives. I do nto take even the Bujinkan on faith. Is there some sort of police report I can access that shows that the art was used to fight off a determined gang banger? Tae Bo has been used to defend people, but those cases are usually a case where dom guy tried somethign during a date and got more than he was willing to go through. Tae Bo will not work in the case I mentioned about the police report.

If I want to earn a Blackbelt in Hapkido, one in Taekwondo, and one in Kenpo and teach a style blending those together with the name "Combat JKD"... Just means my choice of names is stupid, it doesnt mean my art is bad.

Do you thnk the guys who bothered to study under the traditions created by Bruce Lee are going to treat you nicely? Do you think that without that type of background you could state with conviction what Bruce Lee probably would have wanted for his art to become?

Maybe your hypothetical art is good. I doubt it if you tried to attract students with a name of an art you never bothered to study. But even if it was, you would not be able to comment with authority on JKD because you have no background in it.

So, by the same token, why should we who study the art of ninjutsu as it is practiced in Japan listen to some grandmaster (or his students) who has never bothered to do the same type of training we have?

If they want to talk about techniques in the general martial arts section, then that is a different story. But if you want to know about ninjutsu, you tend to look to Japan and the traditions that come from there.

Otherwise, every TKD guy who decides to call himself a ninja is to be treated with the same authority as Takamatsu. And Ashida Kim has the same qualifications as people like Mark Grove. You can't trash Kim and not Grove.

 

[KennethKu]

.....If I want to earn a Blackbelt in Hapkido, one in Taekwondo, and one in Kenpo and teach a style blending those together with the name "Combat JKD"... Just means my choice of names is stupid, it doesnt mean my art is bad.
.....

Why not call it "Combat Funky Chicken Dance"? lol

I'll tell you why. It is the greed thing. You just wanna cash in on the reputation of other people's work. Same logic with those stooges calling their homecooking "Ninjutsu" lol

If they had really come up with something worth a piss at, why wouldn't they patch their NAMES onto it? Why stole an established label?

 

[Cryozombie]

And you take for granted that what you do is more effective than Tae Bo. Is it? Based on what? The assurances of your teacher? EVERY guy who is teaching martial arts says that what they do is effective, even the guys that teach stuff that makes me laugh so hard milk comes out of my nose.

Ok, that makes sense... but, then by what can we accuratly rely upon that the skills we are learning are in fact effective? I trust what I am learning from my instructor based on comparison to past arts I have studied, and comparison to other Bujinkan schools I have attended.

But by the same token, I also base that trust on the reputation of my instructor in the eyes of Higher ranking instructors, like Ed Martin. Would you say that is a wrong thing to do?

Do you thnk the guys who bothered to study under the traditions created by Bruce Lee are going to treat you nicely? Do you think that without that type of background you could state with conviction what Bruce Lee probably would have wanted for his art to become?

I'll buy that too... I guess. I just don't see the necessity of ego thing in names, but I suppose a lot of people do. If I went to this guy for training and he said "This is authentic Bruce Lee Style JKD" and it wasnt, I might be miffed, because he lied to me. But if he said "Well, I created this hybrid, and call it JKD because Bruce Lee said "have no style" and I agree with him." then I would think it made sense. But I see where you are coming from.

 

[Cryozombie]

Why not call it "Combat Funky Chicken Dance"? lol

I'll tell you why. It is the greed thing. You just wanna cash in on the reputation of other people's work. Same logic with those stooges calling their homecooking "Ninjutsu" lol

If they had really come up with something worth a piss at, why wouldn't they patch their NAMES onto it? Why stole an established label?

I'd buy this too... BUT...

Then we always hear people complain about the arrogance of people naming their arts after themselves. I mean, would Technopunk-ryu Ninjaesque-do REALLY sound any better? Ive heard it argued about Saito-ryu (Who DO sound a bit hokey to me) and Tew-ryu that they are arrogant for naming the Ryu after themselves. :idunno:

 

[Don Roley]

If I went to this guy for training and he said "This is authentic Bruce Lee Style JKD" and it wasnt, I might be miffed, because he lied to me. But if he said "Well, I created this hybrid, and call it JKD because Bruce Lee said "have no style" and I agree with him." then I would think it made sense. But I see where you are coming from.

Did you read what I wrote in the thread I posted a link to? What if someone hinted or said he had trained with someone, and it turns out to be probably a lie?

I am talking about how Mark Grove claims to have gotten a Japanese warrior name. It hints that he recieved training from some sort of Mr Miyagi- type of guy and did really well in a traditional Japanese type of training.

But no Japanese would give the name "Kurai Kotori" as a warrior name. I gave one reason why in the thread above, and then later they changed their web site to cover over their flub in terms of language. I give the link to their old web site courtasy of Archive.org to prove that they are re-writting their story as it is revealed to be untrue.

And the reasons I give why the name can not be from a native Japanese aren't even the biggest ones, just the easiest for non-native speakers to confirm.

So, if you think Ashida Kim lied about his training and don't want to talk with him because of it, how do you feel about someone who seems to be lying about his training under a Japanese teacher?

Oh yeah, I can't prove that Ashida Kim's teacher never existed, but Kim never has given proof he did. I can't prove that Mark Grove never had a teacher that gave him the name he claims, but I don't see any proof and the facts seem to point to a fib.

 

[Jeff Boler]

I'm not going to comment on Mr. Grove, or his WQI. As far as I can tell, he doesn't claim some super ancient lineage, so he can create what he wants, just as long as he's up-front about it.

But...Is it normal for MartialTalk to allow blatant commercial advertising like this?

 

[ninpokai]

Don,

You sure do talk a lot of stuff for 6 of our schools being housed in samurai arts...how do you know that he has not train in what he says he has..I have read this forum and seen you at e-budo over there you talked about this being a japanese forum then I guess we shouldnt post here either since ninjutsu originated in china...or did you just not learn that...and so what if the kanji for his name mean moody little bird...maybe you when to an online translator and could not enter it properly...oh so much for holding up the virtues and princbles on Bujinkan let down everyone thats not like us whos with me....NINPOKAI

 

[Don Roley]

Don,

You sure do talk a lot of stuff for 6 of our schools being housed in samurai arts...

What do you mean "we" kemosabe? Who be you? And do you know the first thing about the historical realities of ninjutsu? I think not as you are quick to seperate samurai from ninja as if they were two casts altogether.

how do you know that he has not train in what he says he has..

How do you know he has? Here is why I do not believe him- lack of proof. For someone who is quick to say he trained under someone like Mr Miyagi, he does not seem to want to give names or post pictures. This pretty much runs counter to what I have come to expect from people who really have trained with master of their arts. Heck, even people who have little training grab important people and have their pictures taken with them in order to build up some sort of respectability.

But no pictures, no mention of these teachers, etc. Oh yeah, he wants to mention them, but not give names or proof.

I have read this forum and seen you at e-budo over there you talked about this being a japanese forum then I guess we shouldnt post here either since ninjutsu originated in china...or did you just not learn that...

Oh boy. You really know your stuff. Last I checked, ninjutsu originated in Japan. I guess that is why it uses a Japanese name. As with Japanese culture, there were a lot of Chinese influences, diluted and going through a lot of changes and evolutions. But the idea of ninjutsu being a Chinese art is just too silly for words.

Oh, did I mention that aside from being fluent in Japanese, I know a bit about Japanese history- especially about ninjutsu history. Even guys I don't get along with will admit that. You want to say ninjutsu originated in China start a seperate thread and let the fun begin.

and so what if the kanji for his name mean moody little bird...maybe you when to an online translator and could not enter it properly...oh so much for holding up the virtues and princbles on Bujinkan let down everyone thats not like us whos with me....NINPOKAI

For people just joining us, I live in Japan and read fluent Japanese. I do not need an online translator. Neither do I avoid signing my posts, eh NINPOKAI? The important point of his "warrior name" meaning moody little bird is that no native speaker would give such a name as a warrior name. Thus I tend to conclude (along with everything else I said) that Grove is lying about his personal training history. Kind of like Frank Dux lied about his days with the CIA. The fact that they redid the web site to try to cover this up after I wrote about the mistake is just frosting on the cake.

 

[Cryozombie]

What do you mean "we" kemosabe? Who be you? And do you know the first thing about the historical realities of ninjutsu? I think not as you are quick to seperate samurai from ninja as if they were two casts altogether.

Just a quick note... Not to sidetrack the thread...

You know a LOT of Bujinkan schools I have seen in the US do (or maybe Did is more accurate) teach this as a reality... 3 schools of ninjutsu, 6 schools of Samurai... MY first bujinkan instructor taught me that. And I have seen this distinction made in many books... (not all of them 'kan books) it was only "recently" that the truth of this was pointed out to me... I would assume a lot of people don't know beyond what they have been taught...

Don, You have to admit, the "Historical Reality" of the ninja is pretty "hidden" from most people, and storys tend to vary... I have heard 3 versions from three 'Kan instructors, seen numerous "specials" on various "learning programs" and read several books... and none of them agree... <shrug> Which is correct? Even the things said by Hatsumi-sensei seem to vary depending on when he said them...

 

[Don Roley]

Yes Technopunk, I know that there is a lot of ignorance and bad information out there. As somemone who has spent several years studying Japanese history in Japan, there are things out there on the internet that make me want to scream. The bad information is easier to understand than the more complicated reality and thus gets spread faster and lasts longer.

So if someone makes a mistake like that while I am around, I tend to correct it. And the manner I do so tends to reflect the tone of the original statement. Thus if "ninpoopkai" had started out, "you know, I heard something that I want confirmed" he would get a pretty friendly response from me. But when you state things in a haughty, all- knowing tone, don't expect me to be gentle in pointing out that you don't know the first thing about the subject. :flame:

 

[Bujingodai]

I will agree there was a pretty sanctimonious tone there, thus I do think Don was well within right to piss back. Considering the fact he lives in the home of the art and studies the history.

However I will stand by my fellow school. Mr Grove is incredibly talented. There are many accusations to his system. Well if the accusations create the kind of honourable, respectful, physically fit and capable machines he makes, works for me. Not that his system is for me, it's not. It has a certain flair that isn't conducive to my personal philosophy. However I have been to many Ninjutsu dojo, indie and "legit" by far Groves students would dance circles around 90% of them.
Mark is definatly colourful though, thats the truth. It's part of him. But he is an amazing guy. A fantastic father and a great husband.
Denver is a pricey city to visit but I hope soon to re meet with him. I had a real blast being there.

 

[ninpokai]

Yes Technopunk, I know that there is a lot of ignorance and bad information out there. As somemone who has spent several years studying Japanese history in Japan, there are things out there on the internet that make me want to scream. The bad information is easier to understand than the more complicated reality and thus gets spread faster and lasts longer.

So if someone makes a mistake like that while I am around, I tend to correct it. And the manner I do so tends to reflect the tone of the original statement. Thus if "ninpoopkai" had started out, "you know, I heard something that I want confirmed" he would get a pretty friendly response from me. But when you state things in a haughty, all- knowing tone, don't expect me to be gentle in pointing out that you don't know the first thing about the subject. :flame:

So what you are saying is dont sound like you....ok mr Riley...where is your proof? for anyone who qutes and ask for proof where is it show me where I can go to see that you know what you are talking about? oh by the way yes I have killed someone with a sword, whats your point?

signed Don John

 

[Don Roley]

So what you are saying is dont sound like you....ok mr Riley...where is your proof? for anyone who qutes and ask for proof where is it show me where I can go to see that you know what you are talking about? oh by the way yes I have killed someone with a sword, whats your point?

signed Don John

Anyone think that this guy is anything other than a troll? If not, I guess we can just ignore him.

But I did like the part about killing someone with a sword. Made my day. :uhyeah:

 

[Bujingodai]

Don John, what school are you from? A bonehead comment like that is what gives indies a bad name. Why perpetuate the myth that all non Kan are complete idiots?! Do you not think Don is waiting for a comment like that to rip you a new hole? Try some intelligent mature conversation. Some of us argue with Don but generally there is a code of decency to the posts.