Noto - a queastion on details

[howard]

Hi,

At the conclusion of an informal training session over the weekend, several of us got into a good discussion of the fine points of basic noto. Here are the particulars of a couple of points we were discussing about which I'd like to hear your input.

Following a basic chiburi in which the blade is shaken to the right side, cutting edge outward, the left hand is positioned at the mouth of the scabbard. The right hand then swings the sword across the body to the left, turning the cutting edge upward and positioning the tsuba near the mouth of the scabbard to prepare for noto.

At this point, one begins to draw the sword away from oneself, until the point drops into the mouth of the scabbard.

Our basic question was: precisely where along the left hand does the back of the blade run until the point drops into the mouth of the scabbard? Do you run the back of the blade along the "web" of skin between the thumb and forefinger (in the "V" between those two digits), close to the upper side of the scabbard, or do you run it along the area where the tips of the the thumb and forefinger meet, along the lower side of the scabbard?

Second question: approximately what angle do you maintain between the scabbard and the blade until the point drops? Are you closer to a right angle (90 degrees), or a straight angle (180 degrees)?

I appreciate that these fine details will most likely vary across styles, so there is no single "right" answer. But I'm still interested to know how your style approaches these movements.

Thanks in advance...

 

[Sukerkin]

Not wanting to be a 'stuck record' killjoy but can your sensei not answer these questions?

If you are training without one ...

 

[howard]

Of course I have teachers, and they have answered these questions with respect to our style, thank you very much.

I was interested in how other styles do this.

Now, would you like to contribute?

 

[Monadnock]

Since I wear my saya on my back, I just point the tip over my shoulder and let it drop in, without looking.

 

[Sukerkin]

Sorry, Howard, I was called away before I'd finished and didn't get back to the keyboard for a while. My apologies that the post-fragment I got done sounded so 'sharp' (no pun intended). I should've left it and begun again when I returned - I blame the 'flu I'm suffering under right now (its as if I'm drunk all the time and not in a good way ).

To actually answer your question, both of the contact points you mention are applicable, well nearly.

For the slow, full length noto of the base kata sets (such as Seiza or Batto Ho), then the mune of the blade rests on the web of the hand between the thumb and index finger, with the index finger acting a bit like the 'stop' on a saw-bench (as in the blade parallels the line of the finger).

As you pull the sword forward and the saya back, the angle taken depends an awful lot on how long the blade is. If it's too long for you, then it's quite permissable to angle it across the front of the body to give you that extra bit of room to play with. Otherwise, directly forwards is the ideal. Note that in current MJER (Europe) thinking then they are teaching the across the body noto from the start but I learnt the 'old' way and I prefer it. Likewise, ideally the saya mouth should stay 'upright' but it will generally twist a little anti-clockwise as the left hip goes back- as long as you match the angle with the sword then that's okay.

Because the oval of the thumb and finger encloses the mouth of the saya tightly, when the tip of the sword drops in, you can feel the back of the blade resting on your index finger. As a side-note, the Vee of the hand should be directly over the top of the saya, not off to the side at all - if the hand is off-centre too far it is possible to cut yourself because of the geometries involved.

Crikey, that was hard! It's one of those things that is much easier to show than tell . Hope I made some sort of sense anyhow .

 

[howard]

Thanks, Surkerkin. Very nice explanation that makes a lot of sense to me.

We're slightly different in that we rely more on the areas near the tips of the thumb and forefinger. Other than that, very similar to your description.

 

[Sukerkin]

The use of the thumb and forefinger to 'grip' or pinch the back of the blade as you 'run it out' is a perfectly good variation of the stock noto technique, particularly if the mouth of the saya rises as you draw it back :tup:.

It's something that is not usually recommended at the start of someones training because introducing finger-blade contact early on can lead to a little more 'contact' than we'd like {} but it is something that can be developed as time goes on. The thing to watch out for is the tendency to start 'reaching' for the blade with the thumb and forefinger - to my shame, I fall into this habit myself sometimes. It's not likely to cause much harm with an iaito but it doesn't take much contact to slice yourself up with a shinken .

My brains a little less clouded today than yesterday (tho' I have lost the ability to fry eggs on my forehead ) so I'm very aware of the nuances I didn't describe in my post above - at least I had the sense to add the provisio that noto is something best shown rather than detailed .

 

[howard]

My brains a little less clouded today than yesterday (tho' I have lost the ability to fry eggs on my forehead ) so I'm very aware of the nuances I didn't describe in my post above - at least I had the sense to add the provisio that noto is something best shown rather than detailed .

No argument here - the fine points of this stuff are awfully hard to convey with the printed word alone.

Even so, I still think your explanation is a very good one. Thanks again.

 

[Walter Wong]

This is how we noto. My sensei noto several times here.

Also note that for our ryu, Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho, we avoid finger and skin contact with the blade during noto. It takes quite a bit of practice to get this down.
Despite it looks simple, there is alot of subtlety involved. This style of noto comes from Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei.

On a side note, all of our movements and postures are reflective of old classical principles from Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei of Don Angier Sensei and the Kuroda han Bugei of Kuroda Tetsuzan Sensei. Our techniques in Nami Ryu may appear different, but we hold tight to the old classical movements leaving those unchanged from the 2 systems mentioned above. For us techniques are not the core of our art, but the principles and movements of the body.

 

[howard]

Hi Walter, thanks for the info. Thats' a nice clip, I've seen it before from a link from some other website.

Also note that for our ryu, Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho, we avoid finger and skin contact with the blade during noto. It takes quite a bit of practice to get this down.
Despite it looks simple, there is alot of subtlety involved. This style of noto comes from Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei.

Yes, I definitely agree about the amount of practice involved, for any form of traditional noto.

A question, if you don't mind... you note that there is not contact of the blade with the fingers or skin. In Nami Ryu, what does the mune run along during the drawing out of the sword away from the mouth of the saya, and until the point drops into the mouth?

Thanks again. I appreciate your comments.

 

[Walter Wong]

Howard,

During our noto, the mune is just riding over the koiguchi. The blade is edge up the whole time. Because we aren't feeling the blade with our fingers or skin, one develops a sensitivity to the blade's relation to the saya during the sliding of the mune on the koiguchi til the tip drops in for this specific old style of noto. Hope that helps.

Regards,
Walter

 

[howard]

Walter,

Yes, it does... well explained... thanks again for the info on Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho noto.

Take care, Howard