No legs rule

lklawson

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Anyone competed under the new "no leg attacks" rule? A friend just came back from his first comp under it. He hated it. Claims everyone else did too.

Personally, I think it's horribly stupid but I haven't competed under it (I hope not to, actually).

Peace favor your sword,
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punisher73

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I have heard of this in some BJJ tournaments. Alot of it had to do with liability. If you sink in a good heel hook you can tear out the knee before the person even has the chance to tap to it.

The other reason I have heard is that there are alot of "cheap" leg attacks that take away from the pure BJJ (not saying I agree with this, just the reason I have heard). For example, instead of trying a guard pass many beginnners flop down and try an ankle or leg lock.

Depends on your goals for competing I guess. By limiting your attacks, it does cause you to get better at the other areas. On the other hand, it doesn't allow you to train to attack and defend well with those tools either.
 
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lklawson

lklawson

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I have heard of this in some BJJ tournaments. Alot of it had to do with liability. If you sink in a good heel hook you can tear out the knee before the person even has the chance to tap to it.

The other reason I have heard is that there are alot of "cheap" leg attacks that take away from the pure BJJ (not saying I agree with this, just the reason I have heard). For example, instead of trying a guard pass many beginnners flop down and try an ankle or leg lock.
Leg-locks are already banned under Judo Shiai rules. They're still a part of the "Official Curriculum" but who actually teaches them? Almost no one. I came across some semi-official document somewhere, discussing leg locks in Judo, which said, to paraphrase, "Sure they're part of the curriculum but if you want to actually learn them, you need to ask special permission from a high-level sensei and even then you can use then in randori." I was like, "what?!?!?!"

Instead of outlawing leg-locks, which were already illegal in shiai, this rule outlaws throws and takedowns using a hand/arm grip on the leg. The Single, Double, Irish Pick, Fireman's Carry, etc. All illegal now. (well, the rule is specific about making them illegal as initial attacks but you can still use them as a counter. :p )

Depends on your goals for competing I guess. By limiting your attacks, it does cause you to get better at the other areas. On the other hand, it doesn't allow you to train to attack and defend well with those tools either.
Take away too much and what's the point of learning the art anymore? Might as well study ballroom dance.

Peace favor your sword,
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Nolerama

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My first grappling tournament was an All Subs Allowed event; event to the First Year fighters.

I think that rule stinks.

I'm not big into leg locks, but I like that they're there.
 

Nishibi Ryu

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Keep in mind people that this has been happening since Martial Arts became sport. Rules are made to make it safer and look better according to the powerful ones at the time, not that I agree with any of them.

You don't need to go to high ranking sensei to learn leg locks just find a do jo that teaches the old way, as in pre 1960's. I should say that locks should not be used during randori unless it is done by very experienced people it does not take much effort to dislocate or break a limb. From my experience if you teach a novice they will abuse the lesson and not stay around for long because that is all they want to kearn.
 

Nolerama

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Lol. Right on. Pre 1960's is old school? The "Old Way"?? Come on, don't lump good teaching method in a chronological fashion. It's a complete falsehood.

Back then, and all throughout history, there were good teachers and bad.

Same as now.

Rule sets are rule sets. But I think beginners should know a well-rounded game; especially in grappling. That includes leg locks, and escape from leg locks (the latter more than the former).

My first grappling class went over escaping from a leg lock. I'm still doing it, and I don't think I've ever abused it. The same goes with the myriad of training partners I've rolled with and encountered.

I can see why it's not allowed in competition for certain skill levels and it's to protect the longevity of the competitor... Most rules in competitive MA are for that very reason.

I cornered some gym buddies at a grappling tournament this weekend and the host gym's instructor said it best when it came to the No Leg Locks (But ankle locks were okay) for beginners, and No Slamming rules for all classes: "We want to play Jiu Jitsu for the rest of our lives."

So competitors place rules in which to protect their longevity in their sport?

You don't have to compete.

Oh yeah, I think telling a novice that there are moves and "secret techniques" that are unavailable to them simply because they're new is the reason why they don't come back in conjunction with an elitist teaching method. Besides, would you really want a person who came to learn one technique and one technique only to stay at your gym? I wouldn't. Seems like a horrible training partner to me.

On the other hand, if your teacher's curriculum places X tech on a low priority, in favor of higher percentage, fundamental tech, then yeah, I completely understand.
 

David43515

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I think that what people are worried about is when you remove a technique from competition people stop learning to apply and counter it. Thier use of the art gets sloppy.

I remember a guy a few years ago who had an old copy of a pretty standard Judo book in English. In that edition the last chapter showed about 20 pages of official self defense kata that Kano had made. They aren`t in any of the modern editions of the book. When the guy`s sempai saw it he literally begged to beable to copy the chapter. The sempai was a professional Teacher who`s job is to train other judo teachers, and not only did he not know the kata....he never even knew they existed.
 

Nishibi Ryu

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Lol. Right on. Pre 1960's is old school? The "Old Way"?? Come on, don't lump good teaching method in a chronological fashion. It's a complete falsehood.

Back then, and all throughout history, there were good teachers and bad.

Same as now.

Rule sets are rule sets. But I think beginners should know a well-rounded game; especially in grappling. That includes leg locks, and escape from leg locks (the latter more than the former).

My first grappling class went over escaping from a leg lock. I'm still doing it, and I don't think I've ever abused it. The same goes with the myriad of training partners I've rolled with and encountered.

I can see why it's not allowed in competition for certain skill levels and it's to protect the longevity of the competitor... Most rules in competitive MA are for that very reason.

I cornered some gym buddies at a grappling tournament this weekend and the host gym's instructor said it best when it came to the No Leg Locks (But ankle locks were okay) for beginners, and No Slamming rules for all classes: "We want to play Jiu Jitsu for the rest of our lives."

So competitors place rules in which to protect their longevity in their sport?

You don't have to compete.

Oh yeah, I think telling a novice that there are moves and "secret techniques" that are unavailable to them simply because they're new is the reason why they don't come back in conjunction with an elitist teaching method. Besides, would you really want a person who came to learn one technique and one technique only to stay at your gym? I wouldn't. Seems like a horrible training partner to me.

On the other hand, if your teacher's curriculum places X tech on a low priority, in favor of higher percentage, fundamental tech, then yeah, I completely understand.




LOL I wondered if the pre 1960 comment would get a fun reaction, I did not mean that teachers were better then just refering to the exclusion of many techniques due to the Olympic inclusion of Judo. Kawaishi's book in cluded all of the older locks which were being banned by the Kodakan during that period, so really the no leg rule is no different, but if you want to learn the deleted style you must find someone who's sensei trained during that time that's all.

No I would not want a student who was only looking for one technique, thats my point, its not elite teaching its finding out who they are as people and what are their motives. I don't say there are secrets or call them grass hopper, I just want to teach the right person and that takes time and certain things should be reserved for all that effort its a reward.
 

Nishibi Ryu

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I think that what people are worried about is when you remove a technique from competition people stop learning to apply and counter it. Thier use of the art gets sloppy.

I remember a guy a few years ago who had an old copy of a pretty standard Judo book in English. In that edition the last chapter showed about 20 pages of official self defense kata that Kano had made. They aren`t in any of the modern editions of the book. When the guy`s sempai saw it he literally begged to beable to copy the chapter. The sempai was a professional Teacher who`s job is to train other judo teachers, and not only did he not know the kata....he never even knew they existed.


Exactly my point, thank you for sharing!
 

Steve

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I had read about this on judoforums a while back and there was a lively debate, IIRC. Some thought that this was a natural progression to keeping sport Judo actually judo related. There was some concern that allowing throws outside the Judo canon opened the door for more wrestling takedowns. In this case, specifically single and double leg takedowns.

I'm not a judoka, so I'm sure I don't know all of the inner politics of it, but that was my impression.
 
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lklawson

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There was some concern that allowing throws outside the Judo canon opened the door for more wrestling takedowns. In this case, specifically single and double leg takedowns.
It's crap. Singles, Doubles, Fireman's, Picks, etc. are all standard Judo throws.

kuchikitaoshi.jpg


kibisu.gif

sukui.gif

kataguru.gif

morotegari.gif

Kuchiki-taoshi.jpg


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Steve

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Kirk, I'm not saying otherwise. Honestly, I don't know nearly enough about Judo to suggest otherwise.

What I'm saying is that the impression I got is this rule is intended to prevent wrestling style takedowns in competition. It's a reaction to a perceived dilution of the style.
 
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lklawson

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What I'm saying is that the impression I got is this rule is intended to prevent wrestling style takedowns in competition.
Honestly, that's what I take from it too, though some disagree.

It's a reaction to a perceived dilution of the style.
Yeah, but still, I mean, what the heck? These techs are part of standard Judo, so how could it be that allowing them somehow dilutes? It's crap. It comes across VERY much as "well, heck, Wrestlers have been eating our lunch so we gotta do something to make sure they can't make Judoka look bad." instead of getting better at the very same blasted techs that have been part of your syllabus since day 1. :p

Maybe I'm wrong, but, if so, I'm FAR from the only one who's wrong. And, what with Judo membership declining, this is not the right message to send. Martial arts that are scared of others don't get more people to join up.

Peace favor your sword,
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Nishibi Ryu

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It's crap. Singles, Doubles, Fireman's, Picks, etc. are all standard Judo throws.

kuchikitaoshi.jpg


kibisu.gif

sukui.gif

kataguru.gif

morotegari.gif

Kuchiki-taoshi.jpg


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


Yes and in a few years they will be forgotten throws just like all the others, why not just get everyone to stand and push each other over its safer and less dangerous. Sport will kill MA one day it will not even resemble what it should be.
 

punisher73

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Honestly, that's what I take from it too, though some disagree.


Yeah, but still, I mean, what the heck? These techs are part of standard Judo, so how could it be that allowing them somehow dilutes? It's crap. It comes across VERY much as "well, heck, Wrestlers have been eating our lunch so we gotta do something to make sure they can't make Judoka look bad." instead of getting better at the very same blasted techs that have been part of your syllabus since day 1. :p

Maybe I'm wrong, but, if so, I'm FAR from the only one who's wrong. And, what with Judo membership declining, this is not the right message to send. Martial arts that are scared of others don't get more people to join up.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Thanks for the earlier clarification. I didn't realize that it was for Judo comps. I thought it was for grappling tournaments done by BJJ.

Kano took those takedowns from western wrestling long ago. Kano VERY much understood the idea of taking what works for you.

Judo does this all the time with their rule sets. Look at how different "grips" have been banned or outlawed because other countries started to win in international competition. Now, you have people with no Judo experience (in some cases I have heard) but are great wrestlers entering Judo tournaments and winning. They change the rules again. It is all politics to look good.
 
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Gruenewald

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From my understanding the idea is to "turn judo back into judo", because so much wrestling was being done. A lot of singles/doubles and leg picks are not a part of traditional judo technique, more like supplemental techniques brought into judo in modern times because they are in fact so effective and there was nothing prohibiting people to do so as far as rules are concerned. Being a wrestler, I didn't mind at all, haha. I could do leg shots and sprawl better than most anybody else there, so I could usually beat them at it if they started trying wrestling stuff on me. Like punisher73 mentioned, they want people winning with "judo", not foreign arts similar to judo. It is all politics.

Also just a note, some of those gifs/pics that Iklawson posted are not judo techniques (from my knowledge anyway, might be wrong)... with the exception of the fireman's throw of course, which is known as kata-guruma in judo. Unless of course somebody can provide names for those throws, but yeah to me most of those look like leg picks and take downs taken straight from wrestling. Just because they're wearing judo gis doesn't make it a judo technique. =P

1st picture: looks like a (not so great) leg pick
2nd picture: don't recognize that at all, looks like another leg pick
3rd picture: looks like sukuinage, except not sacrificing, I don't know if you could consider that a leg throw
4th picture: standing kata-guruma
5th picture: double-leg takedown, wrestling
6th picture: looks kind of like ouchi gari countering o soto gari, can't really tell though

Also let me remind everybody, wasn't the rule in judo that you can still grab the leg if there's full body contact between the two judoka? And there's like a time limit or something? That would still allow for at least some of the techniques shown...
 
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elder999

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Also just a note, some of those gifs/pics that Iklawson posted are not judo techniques (from my knowledge anyway, might be wrong)...

Yeah, you are wrong.

That second set of images can also be found here, in a listing of the Official 67 throws of Kodokan judo-with the names.Any beginner should recognize sukuinage, for instance.

Leg grabbing throws are called ashi dori waza-and, under the new rules they're simply not permitted as initial attacks. You can still use them to counter, and you can still use them to follow up from an initial attack.
 
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