Neuralizers

[PhotonGuy]

Neuralizers, those memory erasing devices from Men In Black as of right now are still pretend but they might be real someday. Imagine if they really did have stuff like that.
Scientists are a step closer to creating the memory eraser from “Men in Black”

 

[Tez3]

Neuralizers, those memory erasing devices from Men In Black as of right now are still pretend but they might be real someday. Imagine if they really did have stuff like that.
Scientists are a step closer to creating the memory eraser from “Men in Black”

Oh there has been a procedure for quite a while now that will make people lose their memories, it's a so called treatment for mental illness. it's called electroconvulsive therapy, look it up.

 

[JR 137]

Neuralizers, those memory erasing devices from Men In Black as of right now are still pretend but they might be real someday. Imagine if they really did have stuff like that.
Scientists are a step closer to creating the memory eraser from “Men in Black”

I think I got flashy-thinged several times in college. There’s quite a few nights I have no recollection of.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh there has been a procedure for quite a while now that will make people lose their memories, it's a so called treatment for mental illness. it's called electroconvulsive therapy, look it up.

It's not a "so-called" treatment. It has clinical efficacy in some cases. It's not the same as it was decades ago, when higher currents (probably using the wrong electrical term here) were used. Retrograde amnesia is less of an issue than it was.

 

[Tez3]

It's not a "so-called" treatment. It has clinical efficacy in some cases. It's not the same as it was decades ago, when higher currents (probably using the wrong electrical term here) were used. Retrograde amnesia is less of an issue than it was.

It is still used in some countries as an instrument of torture, used without anaesthetic. According to MInd, the mental health charity here, memory loss is still a big issue.
"This is the most important side effect of ECT, and the one which causes most concern.

It is usually a short-term effect, and most people find their memories gradually return as they recover from ECT.

However, for some people, memory loss can mean both losing personal memories, and having difficulty remembering new information. Some people have been so badly affected that they have lost key skills or knowledge, such as expertise needed to continue their professional work or career.
Longer term effects include:

• apathy (loss of interest in things)
• loss of creativity, drive and energy
• difficulty concentrating
• loss of emotional responses
• difficulty learning new information"

It is a so called treatment because no one knows, still after all this time, how it works and the odds of it helping aren't huge. It's a last resort to be used, in the UK at east, only after everything else has.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is still used in some countries as an instrument of torture, used without anaesthetic. According to MInd, the mental health charity here, memory loss is still a big issue.
"This is the most important side effect of ECT, and the one which causes most concern.

It is usually a short-term effect, and most people find their memories gradually return as they recover from ECT.

However, for some people, memory loss can mean both losing personal memories, and having difficulty remembering new information. Some people have been so badly affected that they have lost key skills or knowledge, such as expertise needed to continue their professional work or career.
Longer term effects include:

• 
  
  
  • apathy (loss of interest in things)
  • loss of creativity, drive and energy
  • difficulty concentrating
  • loss of emotional responses
  • difficulty learning new information"

It is a so called treatment because no one knows, still after all this time, how it works and the odds of it helping aren't huge. It's a last resort to be used, in the UK at east, only after everything else has.

Where it is still performed without general anesthesia, and with higher current, the old issues still exist. It has a steady (though not entirely predictable) track record of helping where other treatments don't work, and of being highly effectacious for some individuals.

The exact mechanism isn't fully understood, though parts of it are much better understood than when it was more widely used (which says a lot about the early users).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It is a so called treatment because no one knows, still after all this time, how it works and the odds of it helping aren't huge. It's a last resort to be used, in the UK at east, only after everything else has.

Just an FYI, this isn't entirely accurate.

First: It is a treatment. It is done in clinical settings to treat (among others) schizophrenia and severe depression.

Second: People don't know how it works, but there are hypotheses about it. That's how a lot of things in neuropsych work-the brain is too complicated to definitively state "this is what does it", but there are a couple well-studied ideas that likely contribute to it's effectiveness. Similarly, we don't know what definitively causes schizophrenia, but there are some well-studied ideas such as the dopamine hypothesis. It makes sense if the cause of a psychological disorder isn't known, neither are exactly why the treatment works.

Third: The odds of it helping are higher than most psycho-pharmaceuticals, when it comes to both schizophrenia and depression, and particularly is useful for people whom medications don't work for.

Fourth: The reason it is generally considered a last resort has nothing to do with it's efficacy as a treatment approach. It's a result of the side effects you mentioned, which are normally gone within six months, but not always. If they could find a way to prevent those side effects, and change the public's image about ECT, it would probably be used much more often.

 

[Tez3]

Where it is still performed without general anesthesia, and with higher current, the old issues still exist. It has a steady (though not entirely predictable) track record of helping where other treatments don't work, and of being highly effectacious for some individuals.

The exact mechanism isn't fully understood, though parts of it are much better understood than when it was more widely used (which says a lot about the early users).

Then you had better tell the psychiatrists at Britain's leading mental health charity they are wrong because that, as I said, is where the info is from. I have seen the effects on people who have had the treatment, they used it at the Military Psychiatric hospital here, I've seen it there and in the group of people with mental illnesses I used to volunteer with.
The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence here recommends it is only used for severe depression that will not respond to other treatments, catatonia and mania, not schizophrenia. It also says there are memory issues. 'NICE' are a non departmental public body under the Department of Health and Social Care.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then you had better tell the psychiatrists at Britain's leading mental health charity they are wrong because that, as I said, is where the info is from. I have seen the effects on people who have had the treatment, they used it at the Military Psychiatric hospital here, I've seen it there and in the group of people with mental illnesses I used to volunteer with.
The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence here recommends it is only used for severe depression that will not respond to other treatments, catatonia and mania, not schizophrenia. It also says there are memory issues. 'NICE' are a non departmental public body under the Department of Health and Social Care.

Nothing I said is in contradiction to the information you posted from them. I'm contradicting your categorization and implications.

 

[Tez3]

Unless you have someone who has severe memory loss from ECT I guess you guys will still think it's wonderful, I will leave you to your opinions. It's on the rise in the USA with most use on females and the elderly, there's also no reputable studies that it actually is effective beyond four weeks and the suicide rate is high, look at Hemingway.


Btw it makes schizophrenia worse, hence why NICE say don't use it for that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unless you have someone who has severe memory loss from ECT I guess you guys will still think it's wonderful, I will leave you to your opinions. It's on the rise in the USA with most use on females and the elderly, there's also no reputable studies that it actually is effective beyond four weeks and the suicide rate is high, look at Hemingway.


Btw it makes schizophrenia worse, hence why NICE say don't use it for that.

So, your best example goes back to before current practices?

You know what, this isn't really worth the discussion. You believe what you do, and aren't likely to change your mind, nor to actually listen to what others believe (evidence your "wonderful" statement).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

To the OP: I would freak out if I found out someone I knew had one of those. Unless I really trust that person's character, I would have a lot of trouble trusting their actions, simply by them owning that. In the same way I would not trust someone who had a supply of rohypnol.

 

[skribs]

The older I get, the more I think neuralizers are real.

 

[Tez3]

So, your best example goes back to before current practices?

You know what, this isn't really worth the discussion. You believe what you do, and aren't likely to change your mind, nor to actually listen to what others believe (evidence your "wonderful" statement).

Sarcasm from someone who lives in a country where treatments and medicines are a business, great. The role of NICE here is to ensue we get value for money on the treatments and drugs that the NHS uses and we pay for as a people, so when they say ECT isn't worth the money paid for it because it is not an effective treatment for just specific ones not including schizophrenia, they have investigated thoroughly before making that decision. It is a literal last ditch effort for those whom everything else has failed and even then the effect last no longer than three to four weeks, hence the need for repeated 'treatment's and the side effects of memory loss. In the USA where the use of ECT is far more widespread than Europe it is not just used as a last resort but for many others mental conditions because of course it can be billed to patients, repeated treatments mean repeated bills. There is no unbiased proof coming from doctors who make money out of their profession.

"The evidence for the National Institute of Clinical Evidence's appraisal of electroconvulsive therapy was drawn from the two reviews commissioned by the Department of Health and a Cochrane review on electroconvulsive therapy in schizophrenia. The National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) has recommended that electroconvulsive therapy only be used to achieve rapid and short term improvement of severe symptoms, after an adequate trial of other treatments has proven ineffective or when the condition is considered to be potentially life threatening, in individuals with severe depressive disorders, catatonia, and a prolonged or severe manic episode. The institute was appropriately influenced by the review of patients' experiences and the recommendations are clearly meant to restrict the use of the treatment. The Royal College of Psychiatrists appealed that the recommendations go beyond the evidence and will prevent patients who would benefit from the treatment from being able to receive it. The appeal was rejected because the recommendations were considered to be sound in the face of uncertainty about long term adverse effects and the findings of the review of patients' experience."
professor of epidemiological psychiatry. John Geddes.
Department of Psychiatry University of Oxford,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sarcasm from someone who lives in a country where treatments and medicines are a business, great. The role of NICE here is to ensue we get value for money on the treatments and drugs that the NHS uses and we pay for as a people, so when they say ECT isn't worth the money paid for it because it is not an effective treatment for just specific ones not including schizophrenia, they have investigated thoroughly before making that decision. It is a literal last ditch effort for those whom everything else has failed and even then the effect last no longer than three to four weeks, hence the need for repeated 'treatment's and the side effects of memory loss. In the USA where the use of ECT is far more widespread than Europe it is not just used as a last resort but for many others mental conditions because of course it can be billed to patients, repeated treatments mean repeated bills. There is no unbiased proof coming from doctors who make money out of their profession.

"The evidence for the National Institute of Clinical Evidence's appraisal of electroconvulsive therapy was drawn from the two reviews commissioned by the Department of Health and a Cochrane review on electroconvulsive therapy in schizophrenia. The National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) has recommended that electroconvulsive therapy only be used to achieve rapid and short term improvement of severe symptoms, after an adequate trial of other treatments has proven ineffective or when the condition is considered to be potentially life threatening, in individuals with severe depressive disorders, catatonia, and a prolonged or severe manic episode. The institute was appropriately influenced by the review of patients' experiences and the recommendations are clearly meant to restrict the use of the treatment. The Royal College of Psychiatrists appealed that the recommendations go beyond the evidence and will prevent patients who would benefit from the treatment from being able to receive it. The appeal was rejected because the recommendations were considered to be sound in the face of uncertainty about long term adverse effects and the findings of the review of patients' experience."
professor of epidemiological psychiatry. John Geddes.
Department of Psychiatry University of Oxford,

You're wandering, once again, into political territory.

 

[Tez3]

You're wandering, once again, into political territory.

The truth is political? Your country does not have social healthcare so you pay for treatment, we have free at point of use so of course your medical people are in business and ours aren't. It's quite simple and I'm surprised to see you now toe the political line now you're a mod, I suppose it's in the 'contract'. I was a mentor at one time, the owner decided he didn't like my, what he called, 'leftist' politics so binned me, so if I'm now abrasive you know why.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Oh there has been a procedure for quite a while now that will make people lose their memories, it's a so called treatment for mental illness. it's called electroconvulsive therapy, look it up.

I am familiar with that, Im not sure as to its effectiveness although I do know it is sometimes still used.

 

[JR 137]

The truth is political? Your country does not have social healthcare so you pay for treatment, we have free at point of use so of course your medical people are in business and ours aren't. It's quite simple and I'm surprised to see you now toe the political line now you're a mod, I suppose it's in the 'contract'. I was a mentor at one time, the owner decided he didn't like my, what he called, 'leftist' politics so binned me, so if I'm now abrasive you know why.

If your healthcare pros are getting paid, it’s a business. Doesn’t matter if the government, private insurance, or patients directly pay out of pocket. It’s still a business.

Our roadwork is done by private contractors paid by government. Trust me, it’s a business. No different than your healthcare.

Our VA (Veteran’s Affairs) hospitals are free to veterans. No insurance, no payment by the patient. Trust me, it’s a business.

We have free healthcare clinics. Yup, they’re a business too.

Whenever money’s exchanged, regardless of from whom, it’s a business.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator

 

[Steve]

I dont know anything about electeic shock therapy or neuralizers. But i disagree with the definition of business. USA healthcarw is busoness because it is "for profit." A very important distinction.

I've also looked into mental healthcare in the UK and think in some ways they are ahead of us and in others very far behind. Not an expert though