My little spat

bcbernam777

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I posted this on another forum, do you think I got to carried away in my meglamanic depression :idunno:

PaulH said:
Bcbernam77,
Okay, where's the beef? Your talk of the 3 energies of the pole fascinates me, I could listen for hours! :lol: Seriously, the main point of the pole traditionally is 6 points and 1/2. So what's this 3 energies? :D


If you had read my post clearly :cry: you would see that it is not refered to as the "three energies of the pole" the three energies are as follows:

1) Sui Lum Tao energy: the energy springing from the root

2) Chum Kui Energy: the energy of the arm Bridge

3) Bui Jee Energy: also sometimes refered to as "whirpool energy" which is linked to the tourquing energy of the joints i.e. shoulder, wrist (which is also why it is called Bui Jee "shooting fingers")

Therefore these are the 3 energies of Wing Chun, not of the pole, (yes it is the 6 and a half point pole for obvious reasons)

The main thrust of my post is simple if you have not developed these three energies to a sufficeint level you will only serve to destruct your handswhen learning the pole, as to operate the pole properly, with the proper use of biomechanics, as opposed to muscular strength, you need these energies as the foundation. You see Sui Lum Tao, Chum Kui, and Bui Jee are the meat and potatoes, all the rest build upon the foundation laid be the three empty hand forms.

As for having a beef, I am simply expressing what I know in order to save people from making what should be clear as fundamental errors in the system. This system was built by a woman, propagated by 5 foot nothing scrawny Chinese men (i.e. Sigung) who's fighthing prowess was renowned, they could only make this happen through the proper use of biomechanics and laws of physics, yet contemporary teachers of Wing chun seem to have left the original sighn posts and traveled in another direction in which Wing chun was never meant to go, what it also means is that by and large in the martial arts community wing chun is seen as ineffective and ultimatly a waste of time to learn, even former students of Wing Chun say that the art is ineffective, and teachers cant keep playing the "ahh well you know they just aren't committed" game any more. The whole Wing Chun community (including myself) need to take a long hard look at why this is, why is it that a kick butt style, which once dominated the HK rooftops is now ever so quickly sinking into decline, why we are getting our bums handed to us in competitions such as the UFC, and lets not use the excuse "well you know we cant win because of the rules" or "well Wing Chun just has all of these gaps in it", bollocks, we can win, we need to come back to basics, stop trying to chase the "advanced" techniques, and learn again to fall in love with the functional and powerful simplicity of pure (yes, I said it) pure Wing Chun, does it exsist, yes. Wing Chun is not open to private interprataion in the principle, only in the method of delivery, yet people seem content to tinker, instead of putting new wheels on, they want to rip open the bonnet and start pulling out this and that, twisting the original heart of Wing Chun. I remember a saying that Bruce Lee said, and even though these days I am not the Lee fan I once was, there is a truth to this that he most certainly gleaned from Wing Chun, and it is in this truth that the true Wing Chun is captured in its pure essence:

"its not daily increse, its daily decrease, like
the sculptor does not keep adding clay
but strips away the inessentials until the
truth is revealed


My own personal belief is that the true essence of Wing Chun, the simplicity of it, and the beuty within that simplicity, has to a large degree been lost in a rush of people clawing their way to the role of Sifu whether that be for financial, egotistical or well intentioned reasons, people declaring themeselves to be Wing Chun masters, no one can ever say they are a master, how can they, for no one ever masters wing Chun, we should always remain students, but such titles look impressive, and take in the glittering eyes of the potential student, with their cotton candy dreams of defeating ten crazed mainiacs with a single sweep of their hand. If I gain ten students my whole life to whom I can pass on my Sifus hands to, then I will be happier than have a thousand students, and a hundred Instructors, who have misconstured my intent, yes we have to eat, but at what price to our art?

Anyway I know I am going to get flamed from hell and back for this one but I am to old to worry about that.
 

yipman_sifu

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bcbernam777 said:
I posted this on another forum, do you think I got to carried away in my meglamanic depression :idunno:




If you had read my post clearly :cry: you would see that it is not refered to as the "three energies of the pole" the three energies are as follows:

1) Sui Lum Tao energy: the energy springing from the root

2) Chum Kui Energy: the energy of the arm Bridge

3) Bui Jee Energy: also sometimes refered to as "whirpool energy" which is linked to the tourquing energy of the joints i.e. shoulder, wrist (which is also why it is called Bui Jee "shooting fingers")

Therefore these are the 3 energies of Wing Chun, not of the pole, (yes it is the 6 and a half point pole for obvious reasons)

The main thrust of my post is simple if you have not developed these three energies to a sufficeint level you will only serve to destruct your handswhen learning the pole, as to operate the pole properly, with the proper use of biomechanics, as opposed to muscular strength, you need these energies as the foundation. You see Sui Lum Tao, Chum Kui, and Bui Jee are the meat and potatoes, all the rest build upon the foundation laid be the three empty hand forms.

As for having a beef, I am simply expressing what I know in order to save people from making what should be clear as fundamental errors in the system. This system was built by a woman, propagated by 5 foot nothing scrawny Chinese men (i.e. Sigung) who's fighthing prowess was renowned, they could only make this happen through the proper use of biomechanics and laws of physics, yet contemporary teachers of Wing chun seem to have left the original sighn posts and traveled in another direction in which Wing chun was never meant to go, what it also means is that by and large in the martial arts community wing chun is seen as ineffective and ultimatly a waste of time to learn, even former students of Wing Chun say that the art is ineffective, and teachers cant keep playing the "ahh well you know they just aren't committed" game any more. The whole Wing Chun community (including myself) need to take a long hard look at why this is, why is it that a kick butt style, which once dominated the HK rooftops is now ever so quickly sinking into decline, why we are getting our bums handed to us in competitions such as the UFC, and lets not use the excuse "well you know we cant win because of the rules" or "well Wing Chun just has all of these gaps in it", bollocks, we can win, we need to come back to basics, stop trying to chase the "advanced" techniques, and learn again to fall in love with the functional and powerful simplicity of pure (yes, I said it) pure Wing Chun, does it exsist, yes. Wing Chun is not open to private interprataion in the principle, only in the method of delivery, yet people seem content to tinker, instead of putting new wheels on, they want to rip open the bonnet and start pulling out this and that, twisting the original heart of Wing Chun. I remember a saying that Bruce Lee said, and even though these days I am not the Lee fan I once was, there is a truth to this that he most certainly gleaned from Wing Chun, and it is in this truth that the true Wing Chun is captured in its pure essence:

"its not daily increse, its daily decrease, like
the sculptor does not keep adding clay
but strips away the inessentials until the
truth is revealed

My own personal belief is that the true essence of Wing Chun, the simplicity of it, and the beuty within that simplicity, has to a large degree been lost in a rush of people clawing their way to the role of Sifu whether that be for financial, egotistical or well intentioned reasons, people declaring themeselves to be Wing Chun masters, no one can ever say they are a master, how can they, for no one ever masters wing Chun, we should always remain students, but such titles look impressive, and take in the glittering eyes of the potential student, with their cotton candy dreams of defeating ten crazed mainiacs with a single sweep of their hand. If I gain ten students my whole life to whom I can pass on my Sifus hands to, then I will be happier than have a thousand students, and a hundred Instructors, who have misconstured my intent, yes we have to eat, but at what price to our art?

Anyway I know I am going to get flamed from hell and back for this one but I am to old to worry about that.

What simplicity you mean?, still Wing Chun is simple and direct, and its main idea is to go forward for a straight attack to finish any situation, and only we change strategy when something changes but we will return to the straight line again.
You are saying that Sifus are making it complicated, that's why we lose in UFC matches?. Let me tell you something: a Wing Chun trainer who goes to UFC to challenge is a trainer who did not understood what is Wing Chun, I mean that Wing Chun is made to finish situations in the shortest time possible, while in UFC, you are restricted to perform such direct moves because they are fatal to be executed, after all Wing Chun is self defense that is only for self defense in real hard situations, I cannot hit someone throat or groin in an octagon or any ring. Wing chun concepts always will avoid us from combat except when it is really needed.

Regarding Sifus, I saw many of them demonstrating Wing Chun and they were excellent, I mean sifus like Gary Lam, Leung Ting, Emin Boztepe, Thomas Mannes, and many others are poular and excellent. I mean if someone want to train Wing Chun, he will definetely train under those recognized sifus, otherwise training under unqualified instructors obviously will result in facing problems due to the lack of concepts the trainer recieved from such weak instructors that calims to teach you everything in a short time, so it is the matter of what you choose, staying to the root concepts, and hard training that will assure proper training and excellent results.
 
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bcbernam777

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yipman_sifu said:
What simplicity you mean?, still Wing Chun is simple and direct, and its main idea is to go forward for a straight attack to finish any situation, and only we change strategy when something changes but we will return to the straight line again.

The simplicity of natural, structural positions. In Wing Chun the hand is nothing, the root energy is everything, and in understanding this as well as several other concepts that compose of central domination, mean that we do not give our oponant our energy, we take, like a sponge, not cracshing against them but recieving them. What moving forward means in the majority of Wing Chun I have seen is this tense giving away of the practicioners energy to the oponant, whether they win or not is irrelevant, if they are giving their energy away it is not Wing Chun.


yipman_sifu said:
You are saying that Sifus are making it complicated, that's why we lose in UFC matches?. Let me tell you something: a Wing Chun trainer who goes to UFC to challenge is a trainer who did not understood what is Wing Chun, I mean that Wing Chun is made to finish situations in the shortest time possible, while in UFC, you are restricted to perform such direct moves because they are fatal to be executed, after all Wing Chun is self defense that is only for self defense in real hard situations, I cannot hit someone throat or groin in an octagon or any ring. Wing chun concepts always will avoid us from combat except when it is really needed.

Incorrect, there where many no rules matches in HK which is Beimo, these matches where participated in the understanding that there where no fatalities. And Wing Chun dominated, the UFC have probably more restrictions, but not that restricted that we cannot win in such matches. If every altercation in Wing Chun ends in a "fatal blow" then there would have been deaths left right and centre in the Beimo, this did not happen.

yipman_sifu said:
Regarding Sifus, I saw many of them demonstrating Wing Chun and they were excellent, I mean sifus like Gary Lam, Leung Ting, Emin Boztepe, Thomas Mannes, and many others are poular and excellent

I cannot comment on their Wing Chun because I have never touched hands with them which would be the only way for me to judge their quality, and just because a sifu is popular means nothing, that could well be down to good marketing than anything else.

yipman_sifu said:
I mean if someone want to train Wing Chun, he will definetely train under those recognized sifus, otherwise training under unqualified instructors obviously will result in facing problems due to the lack of concepts the trainer recieved from such weak instructors that calims to teach you everything in a short time, so it is the matter of what you choose, staying to the root concepts, and hard training that will assure proper training and excellent results.

Not necessaraly, if the root concepts you are taught are incorrect.
 

yipman_sifu

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You have a point regarding Beimos, But regarding the roots, they will never change, the basic Wing Chun fondation concepts are still there for all trainers.

The sifus I mentioned never promoted their system, they follow the wing Chun concepts that says: if you want to learn Wing Chun, follow it, don't expect that it will come to you. I mean that those masters are always known among Wing Chun disciples, other styles disciples can know them only by asking people about them.

Why are you upset about such losses in UFC, if you watch this video, you will realize that the Wing Chun guy is doing nothing in the ring, that's why he lost, so why do you expect such a guy to win if he could not do simple things that students can do "punch the man in the head the moment he was grabbed"

check it here: http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/view?&h=100&w=150&type=mpeg&rurl=www.wushuathletic.com%2F%7Ejason%2Fmisc%2Fmartial_arts.html&vurl=http%3A%2F%2Fneurology.med.upenn.edu%2F%7Ejason%2Ffights%2FChallenge-Wrestling.vs.WingChun.mpg&back=p%3Dwing%2Bchun%2Bvs%26sm%3DYahoo%2521%2BSearch%26fr%3DFP-tab-vid-t%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3D%26ei%3DUTF-8&turl=re2.mm-so.yimg.com%2Fimage%2F1748694343&name=Challenge-Wrestling...ngChun.mpg&no=3&tt=12&p=wing+chun+vs&oid=be69d610ea6e71f6&size=4.8MB&dur=29

Regards
Yipman Sifu
 
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bcbernam777

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The fundamental reason why I get so upset as to why these people loose, is the fact that it means that our reputation, the reputation of our system, get trashed, and therefore people see the style as useless, this is the rep that WC has in many MA circles. The whole aim is to build back up the reputation that Sigungs Wing Chun had, and to restore it to its rightfull place as the preeminant MA in the world. Yes I have seen that video before, his fundamental flaw was not that he did nothing, but that it is obvious that he already had a plan in mind instead of recieving his oponant (recieve waht comes, send of what retreats). It was also obvious that this supposed VT master had no SLT energy, this is the crux of the argument, Wing Chun is not about the hands but abuot the development of the key energies, this seems to have become a lost thing in contemporary Wing chun.
 

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bcbernam777 said:
The fundamental reason why I get so upset as to why these people loose, is the fact that it means that our reputation, the reputation of our system, get trashed, and therefore people see the style as useless, this is the rep that WC has in many MA circles. The whole aim is to build back up the reputation that Sigungs Wing Chun had, and to restore it to its rightfull place as the preeminant MA in the world. Yes I have seen that video before, his fundamental flaw was not that he did nothing, but that it is obvious that he already had a plan in mind instead of recieving his oponant (recieve waht comes, send of what retreats). It was also obvious that this supposed VT master had no SLT energy, this is the crux of the argument, Wing Chun is not about the hands but abuot the development of the key energies, this seems to have become a lost thing in contemporary Wing chun.

Wing Chun was never made to make reputations among other arts, I mean that if we believe that it is only for self defense, we would not be concerned as far as ourselves in fighting issues, ignoring about such bad results in any match in any event wheather was it a UFC, Pride or any regulated tournaments. It is enough for us to believe to the effectiveness of this system by observing our old Sifus many victories in Beimos and fights they had with other martial artists.

Regarding SLT, please can you tell me what do you mean by its energy?, because as far as I know, this form is used to understand the basic moves of Wing chun in a stable phase to provide stability and relaxed attitude when performing the form.
 
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bcbernam777

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yipman_sifu said:
Wing Chun was never made to make reputations among other arts,

The only reason why Sigung was able to teach so many Wing Chun was because of his reputation, what this meant was that the survival of pure Wing Chun could be ensured, to pass on to the next generation, bad rep means that this form of the Gung Fu is not being passed on



yipman_sifu said:
It is enough for us to believe to the effectiveness of this system by observing our old Sifus many victories in Beimos and fights they had with other martial artists.

No, that is not enough, it is only enough when we can ensure the effectiveness of our system today, through the testing grounds of the streets and reality matches. I coudn't care two craps about whether my Sifu is effective, I already know that he is, I have to look today and see my own effectiveness, and ensure that I am able to catch the essence of Sifu's teaching so that I am passing on the CORRECT Wing Chun to the future generations, and not some half baked imitation, marred by my impatience, un-teachableness, and missinterpratation, as the saying goes

"Poor is the student who does not surpass his master"

Which brings me back to the original point of the post, Sifu made it clear to me from the very begining that my goal should be to be better than him, I told him I will be better than Yip Man. Why? becaus each generation should be better than the next, there should be an increase in reputation not a decrease as we see today, it is not enough for us to rest on the laurals of the "past masters", but to surpass their own Gung Fu prowess, why? beacause we have the benefit of their years of experiance, and every generation that knowledge increases exponentialy.
teachable ness
,

yipman_sifu said:
Regarding SLT, please can you tell me what do you mean by its energy?, because as far as I know, this form is used to understand the basic moves of Wing chun in a stable phase to provide stability and relaxed attitude when performing the form.

Did you not say you where a teacher yet you do not understand the essential purpose of the Sui Lum Tao, You make the same mistake as many Wing Chun practicioners, note I did not say all, the SLT has little if anything to do with basic moves, it is not about hands, neither is it simply about stability, it is about energy, I have made plenty of posts in regard to the energy, yet it seems like people who dont understand it simply think I am full of s**t, and have a good laugh at my expense, and one day I thought "why the hell am I doing this for, no one really wants to know, so its thier loss, and why, as the saying goes, would I cast mine (sifus) pearls before swine, so they can trample them under foot and then turn and tear me to pieces,"(and plese no "yeah if you had the Sui Lum Tao energy they wouldnt be able to" jokes) (note this has rarely happened to me on this forum, everyone here seems to be mature and level headed and open which is a good thing), OK, so I have made a decision not to describe the energy any more, so if you want to find what I have written you can do a search on this and other forums, and besides all of this the best demonstration is in person.
 

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Well, I think you are the kind that is hard to deal with convincing ideas, so listen to this for one last time in this section.
I continued to post many times regarding that I don't care about Wing Chun guys got beaten on UFC or any other regulated competition as long as I care about its concepts and effectivness. But it seems that you are stuck up with the glory of the system, so let me satisfy you again. most of the guys who got beaten up in the matches were not masters or proffesional trainers of the system, have you ever seen a master figthing in competitions?. The answer may be yes 50 years ago, but now no, because they consider fighting in competitions is not something that Wing Chun masters must do, they have high reputations as respected figures in the world, just going to a fight will spoil their reputation as non wisdomed guys who their actions does not go by what they say "A fight avoided is a fight won". Mabye they needed reputations during Beimos but not now.

If you want to know something aboout a wing Chun master figthing, check the story of Emin Boztepe when he invited the Gracie brothers to a street duel, you may be satisfied. and please don't call me master or an experienced guy, because asking you humbly about your opinions does seems to bother you, sorry anyway.
 
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bcbernam777

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yipman_sifu said:
Well, I think you are the kind that is hard to deal with convincing ideas, so listen to this for one last time in this section.
I continued to post many times regarding that I don't care about Wing Chun guys got beaten on UFC or any other regulated competition as long as I care about its concepts and effectivness. But it seems that you are stuck up with the glory of the system, so let me satisfy you again. most of the guys who got beaten up in the matches were not masters or proffesional trainers of the system, have you ever seen a master figthing in competitions?. The answer may be yes 50 years ago, but now no, because they consider fighting in competitions is not something that Wing Chun masters must do, they have high reputations as respected figures in the world, just going to a fight will spoil their reputation as non wisdomed guys who their actions does not go by what they say "A fight avoided is a fight won". Mabye they needed reputations during Beimos but not now.

If you want to know something aboout a wing Chun master figthing, check the story of Emin Boztepe when he invited the Gracie brothers to a street duel, you may be satisfied. and please don't call me master or an experienced guy, because asking you humbly about your opinions does seems to bother you, sorry anyway.

I have no problem about anyone asking me about my opinion, as you will see if you look at my posts on this forum, and you seem to miss the fundamental crux of my post which is not about the glory of Wing Chun, but its survival, and I am not talking about the Mcdojo crap that is served up to the masses, I am talking about the pure WC as handed down from Sigung. As for the Boztepe thing, I already know about that , and I already now that it is not as simple as he invited them because as far as I can tell from ALL the evidence, he tried to worm out of it. I do not consider Boztepe a master.
 

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bcbernam777 said:
The fundamental reason why I get so upset as to why these people loose, is the fact that it means that our reputation, the reputation of our system, get trashed, and therefore people see the style as useless, this is the rep that WC has in many MA circles. The whole aim is to build back up the reputation that Sigungs Wing Chun had, and to restore it to its rightfull place as the preeminant MA in the world.

I would like to make an observation here: No art, including Wing Chun, can make a claim to have a "rightful place as the preeminent MA in the world." I don't understand the notion of this kind of entitlement. All arts have something good to offer and can produce outstanding fighters. Likewise, all arts can be done poorly and produce lousy fighters. There is no "best" art (other threads have discussed this topic).

Why get so hung up on the "reputation" of Wing Chun? I think that the martial arts community as a whole doesn't really care. Of course indivuals have their own opinions about any art, but this is different from person to person. There is no agreement among the martial arts community as a whole as to what is good and what is no good. Why let what someone else might (or might NOT) think bother you? Most people who have never seen or studied one style or another have little or no opinion one way or the other. Why do you think Wing Chun has a poor reputation in the overall community? If it so happens that it does in your area, that doesn't make it true everywhere. It just depends on what people have been exposed to, and what they have experienced.

My two cents.
 
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Flying Crane said:
I would like to make an observation here: No art, including Wing Chun, can make a claim to have a "rightful place as the preeminent MA in the world." I don't understand the notion of this kind of entitlement. All arts have something good to offer and can produce outstanding fighters. Likewise, all arts can be done poorly and produce lousy fighters. There is no "best" art (other threads have discussed this topic). .

I understand the discussions that have happened on this topic, however I still believe and will always believe that Wing Chun is the preemeinate MA, because of a number of factors. Just as with anything else in life there is quality and there is crap, (now I am not saying everything else is crap but crap does exsist in the MA world), and then again there is Wing Chun, and there is Wing Chun. For example, i when I had studied with my Sifu for a year I did some training with someone from another school of Wing Chun who had been training on a consistant basis for 6 years at another WC school. He still can work ut to this day how I gave him such a sound thrashing, the quality of our Winf Chun that we where learning was vastly different.

Flying Crane said:
Why get so hung up on the "reputation" of Wing Chun?.


because a good solid reputation leads to attracting more committed and informed students, which inturn leads to the systems survival.



Flying Crane said:
I think that the martial arts community as a whole doesn't really care. Of course indivuals have their own opinions about any art, but this is different from person to person. There is no agreement among the martial arts community as a whole as to what is good and what is no good.

No this doesnt happen on this forum, however if you spend enough times on other forums, there is a clear and consistant theme running through with the lets bash WC because of its ineffectiveness
 

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I was hesitant to post since I am not a WC student, but thought I would throw my objective yet ignorant .02 in here...

I really enjoy the martial arts forums but one thing that seems to be universal on every forum I read is the need for stylists to bash other styles, so please realize it is not just WC but Kempo/Kenpo, Jujitsu, TKD, JKD etc. Someone is always trying to shorten someone elses line rather than lengthening their own- Do not let it get to you... Your system has a long and impressive lineage do not let doubt cloud your training!

I feel style bashing is a way for folks to make themselves feel better or more secure in their training and their system. It gives them an ego boost (which should not be necessary as that is not what most MA's are all about). Unfortunately for them just being in a system that gets less crap on these forums does not make them gifted fighters..

You both make sense to me but I would error on the side of not caring what other folks think about your style-

Have a great night!

James
 

yipman_sifu

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dianhsuhe said:
I was hesitant to post since I am not a WC student, but thought I would throw my objective yet ignorant .02 in here...

I really enjoy the martial arts forums but one thing that seems to be universal on every forum I read is the need for stylists to bash other styles, so please realize it is not just WC but Kempo/Kenpo, Jujitsu, TKD, JKD etc. Someone is always trying to shorten someone elses line rather than lengthening their own- Do not let it get to you... Your system has a long and impressive lineage do not let doubt cloud your training!

I feel style bashing is a way for folks to make themselves feel better or more secure in their training and their system. It gives them an ego boost (which should not be necessary as that is not what most MA's are all about). Unfortunately for them just being in a system that gets less crap on these forums does not make them gifted fighters..

You both make sense to me but I would error on the side of not caring what other folks think about your style-

Have a great night!

James

Well you are telling me that other people thinks that we are bad because we demean other styles, well that's true but let me give you an example about it. You can learn sword fighting for months, years, and aquire an experience that allows you to fight a whole army with swords! I mean that you really trained hard and spent your entire life training in this weapon, can you say that I can win anyone because I trained harder than others. Your answer can be yes only when you fight with swords, but if someone is 5 years old and pointed a gun at you from a distance, you cannot do anything even if you train forever.

That is a possibiliy about MA, you may train in a certain style for years and devote yourself to it, but it's level is not that qualified to win other opponents who trained in other systems. Many of the old Wing Chun masters defeated top martial artists of other styles when they were just students training during the Beimos. Why?, because they took advantage of some other styles that are proud of having thousands of stances against attacks and defences, while Wing Chun students of Yipman just punched them straight by chain punches to fininsh the fight before it even started.
 
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bcbernam777

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dianhsuhe said:
I was hesitant to post since I am not a WC student, but thought I would throw my objective yet ignorant .02 in here...

I really enjoy the martial arts forums but one thing that seems to be universal on every forum I read is the need for stylists to bash other styles, so please realize it is not just WC but Kempo/Kenpo, Jujitsu, TKD, JKD etc. Someone is always trying to shorten someone elses line rather than lengthening their own- Do not let it get to you... Your system has a long and impressive lineage do not let doubt cloud your training!

I feel style bashing is a way for folks to make themselves feel better or more secure in their training and their system. It gives them an ego boost (which should not be necessary as that is not what most MA's are all about). Unfortunately for them just being in a system that gets less crap on these forums does not make them gifted fighters..

You both make sense to me but I would error on the side of not caring what other folks think about your style-

Have a great night!

James


Thanks for the post James:)

Your opinion is valid
 

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dianhsuhe said:
I was hesitant to post since I am not a WC student, but thought I would throw my objective yet ignorant .02 in here...

I really enjoy the martial arts forums but one thing that seems to be universal on every forum I read is the need for stylists to bash other styles, so please realize it is not just WC but Kempo/Kenpo, Jujitsu, TKD, JKD etc. Someone is always trying to shorten someone elses line rather than lengthening their own- Do not let it get to you... Your system has a long and impressive lineage do not let doubt cloud your training!

I feel style bashing is a way for folks to make themselves feel better or more secure in their training and their system. It gives them an ego boost (which should not be necessary as that is not what most MA's are all about). Unfortunately for them just being in a system that gets less crap on these forums does not make them gifted fighters..

You both make sense to me but I would error on the side of not caring what other folks think about your style-

Have a great night!

James

I agree with you. This is what I was trying to say in my post. Thanks for adding.
 

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yipman_sifu said:
That is a possibiliy about MA, you may train in a certain style for years and devote yourself to it, but it's level is not that qualified to win other opponents who trained in other systems. Many of the old Wing Chun masters defeated top martial artists of other styles when they were just students training during the Beimos. Why?, because they took advantage of some other styles that are proud of having thousands of stances against attacks and defences, while Wing Chun students of Yipman just punched them straight by chain punches to fininsh the fight before it even started.

See, this is the kind of "My style is better than Your style" nonsense that just doesn't make sense. Wing Chun has produced both GREAT and LOUSY fighters, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER MARTIAL ART. People need to get off this notion that they have a "superior" art. There are only superior practitioners, not superior arts.

My Sifu's uncle, who taught him Tibetan White Crane, used to beat up the wing chun people in Hong Kong all the time. I have heard Wing Chun people call Choy Lay Fut the "Wing Chun Killer". I am not trying to say these are better styles, just putting it in perspective, since you point out how wing chun people beat up people from other styles. It goes both ways. Wing Chun doesn't have the monopoly on good fighters. But neither does any other style.

This kind of thinking can really become childish.
 

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Flying Crane said:
See, this is the kind of "My style is better than Your style" nonsense that just doesn't make sense. Wing Chun has produced both GREAT and LOUSY fighters, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER MARTIAL ART. People need to get off this notion that they have a "superior" art. There are only superior practitioners, not superior arts.

My Sifu's uncle, who taught him Tibetan White Crane, used to beat up the wing chun people in Hong Kong all the time. I have heard Wing Chun people call Choy Lay Fut the "Wing Chun Killer". I am not trying to say these are better styles, just putting it in perspective, since you point out how wing chun people beat up people from other styles. It goes both ways. Wing Chun doesn't have the monopoly on good fighters. But neither does any other style.

This kind of thinking can really become childish.

You are right my friend, it may be of superior trainers of the system, because I respect all the other arts as long as it is in the MA world, but to be honest, we can say that there are other systems more effective than other systems. I never mentioned names of other styles due to the respect I have to them, but when it comes that someone starts to talk about Wing Chun as a normal fighting system, it means he is not knowing what he is talking about. Wing Chun trainers always seek self defence as their first aim, not caring about saying we are the best among other arts, but when someone is saying that your system is not that effective due to the lack of the many movements it must have like other arts, the Wing Chun trainer must replay back to such sayings, that's the only thing I did.
I hope you got my point friend.
 

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yipman_sifu said:
You are right my friend, it may be of superior trainers of the system, because I respect all the other arts as long as it is in the MA world, but to be honest, we can say that there are other systems more effective than other systems. I never mentioned names of other styles due to the respect I have to them, but when it comes that someone starts to talk about Wing Chun as a normal fighting system, it means he is not knowing what he is talking about. Wing Chun trainers always seek self defence as their first aim, not caring about saying we are the best among other arts, but when someone is saying that your system is not that effective due to the lack of the many movements it must have like other arts, the Wing Chun trainer must replay back to such sayings, that's the only thing I did.
I hope you got my point friend.

I do get your point, and I have studied Wing Chun and have great respect for it. I think it is a wonderful system. It is just easy to slip into the old "superiority" complex and maybe we all need to be careful to not do that.
 

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I did not say that people give you a hard time because you demean other styles- I said: EVERY STYLE GETS A HARD TIME FROM SOMEONE OR ANOTHER, SO WHAT, GET OVER IT-

You have a wonderful system, just train hard and keep both eyes on your goals-
 

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