My instructor beats up a guest

OP
T

The MMA kid!

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Messages
152
Reaction score
2
Location
Arlington, tx
he also clearly at an advanced level, saying that he is self trained is out of the question, he was throwing well-time spinning bavk kicks at head level, and was able to counter attacks quickly.
 

Grenadier

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
10,826
Reaction score
617
He may be very well be experienced, but with experience is supposed to come control and restraint. He had not shown either, according to your statement.
 

rmclain

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
538
Reaction score
17
Location
Arlington, Texas
Hi MMA,

Was Franc the instructor teaching that day? Sorry your school had to deal with someone like that.

R. McLain
 
OP
T

The MMA kid!

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Messages
152
Reaction score
2
Location
Arlington, tx
rmclain said:
Hi MMA,

Was Franc the instructor teaching that day? Sorry your school had to deal with someone like that.

R. McLain

yes, he was. it was actually entertaining to watch our instructor in action.
 

DArnold

Purple Belt
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
337
Reaction score
5
Location
Westminster, CO, USA
Jonathan Randall said:
I think the answer would be to break off the sparring session with that particular student rather than "take him out" - just because one person fails to act with integrity doesn't mean it should be answered in the same manner.

This is a limited electronic medium, so perhaps you meant that he should have defended himself rather than go for "payback" as it sounded like in your post. If so, I apologize.
Mr. Randall,
Sorry but I don't see your side.
I was referring to defending myself and that had nothing to do with "payback".
And as a point of Integrity, as described, this person was beating on beginner students. Therefore a leson should be in order.

The rules in a class are there to protect people so they may learn in an atmosphere of trust.

Saying that even though one person is knowingly not following these rules, that I should still follow these rules, is about the dumbest thing I could ever think of to do.

I would associate this with being jumped on the street by someone and thinking I will still follow my class rules.

When someone decides not to follow the class rules in sparring then they should be prepared to accept the consiquences!
___________________________________________________

Looking at the situation that was presented:
  • ...but said to have trained in Ninjitsu or something or other. (he also said that he was self taught later that night)
Most people with any training know that rules vary from class to class and it is the responsibility of the visiting student to find out what these rules are. (Similar to when you bet money in poker, most people want to know what game they are playing before they start betting)
  • ...since many student are new, we did not allow punches to the head, though kicks to the head were aloud. groin shots are a sure nono.
    the guy hit to the face pretty much any opportunity he had.
To me this implies that he is hitting new students and ignoring the rules of this class.
  • ...after several warnings, he was told to keep it to the body.
He was warned
  • He parries on of my attacks and crosses me in the face
Thus showing he either has no controll or is not concerned with the rules in the class. (I don't know, as many disagree with this point, but I was always taught that I am responsible for my own fists. If I throw them than I am responsible for controlling them)

There were a couple of assumptions I made when making my comment that only the MMA kid can answer:
  1. Do you explaine the rules of class to new students before you allow them to fight?
  2. What happened after you kicked him in the groin, as someone new this may have been constued as a physical sign that this is ok to do?
SO
This person has already shown a propensity to not follow the class rules, and reguardless of any class rules, the number one rule is to defend yourself reguardless of any class rules.

This person had shown Severity:
  • ... hit to the face pretty much any opportunity he had
He has shown his Intent:
  • grunting aloud and pounding his fists upon the ground to show aggression
And produced Results:
  • ... and crosses me in the face
I guess I am getting older, but with all these signs I would not wait until someone hurts me before I react.

Most students are afraid that their instructor may be upset if they hurt someone as it would be perceived as them getting out of line. But if somone is being dangerious by not following the rules then they are not expected to follow them either. (And by this there is a big difference between an accident and intention)

Normally as an instructor I would just unleash one of my senior students on someone like this as when someone starts in on beginners, then that requires a lesson.

And it also sounds like a couple other things may have occured:
  • There was no one senior enough in the class to handle this problem
  • The seniors were not paying attention to what was going on
  • The seniors had not been faced with a situation like this so they were afraid of what their instructor would think.
Then again most situations blindside you when you least expect them.

There but by the grace of God go I :)
 
OP
T

The MMA kid!

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 3, 2005
Messages
152
Reaction score
2
Location
Arlington, tx
to answer your questions Darnold.

1. we were all breifed the rules of sparring before the sparring commenced. they were given clearly with all students sitting down against the wall, and the instructor at the center of the mat.

2. after i kicked him in the groin the session was momentarily stopped. he was not hurt. we were taked back to the center of the mat to restart. he than waited a bit and gave me the full force low blow.
 

Henderson

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Messages
1,112
Reaction score
8
Location
Ashland, PA, USA
I am sorry that I do not have a positive spin to put on this comment, but I personally feel that this fellow simply should have been pummeled:whip: for his arrogance and disrespect, and then told to leave and not come back.

I would have tried to find the bright side, but this just ticks me off!:angry:

Respects,

Frank
 

Knarfan

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
183
Reaction score
8
I'v trained with people like this. If his behavor dosen't change imediatly the only thing that he will be good for is injuring somone. Personally, I hate training with people that I can't trust.
 
K

kmguy8

Guest
wow... ok, I would never allow a walk in to spar on thier first day. regardless of experience claimed (90% of the time that's crap anyway).

At my school I insist students spend a week or two if experienced training so I can see them move. 1-2 months before I let a newbie throw leather and feet.

Second, after the first warning I would have been watching or put a senior on him as was recomended. Second time he would have been asked to sit and watch or be asked to leave.

If I let him make to a third time the last hting I would do is beat him up myself. jesus, that is BEGGING for a lawsuit. If one of my assistants did this in my school they would be fired. You can not throw your own saftey rules away, it is negligent and your contract limiting your liability (assuming you are at least that bright) is worthless...

the instructor is lucky he was not waiting outside with a cop. I would start training elsewhere if your school is taking this jack-*** as a student. would you really spar with him again?

*total disbelief*
 

Michael Billings

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Messages
3,962
Reaction score
31
Location
Austin, Texas USA-Terra
I agree with Darnold and kmguy8. I seldom let someone I do not know spar with us, unless vouched for by one of my students. That being said, I have allowed it in the past, but probably should not have. I used to know everyone from the various schools, tournaments, or seminars around town. That has long gone by the wayside as the Martial Arts community here in Texas has really taken off.

Either way, thumping him can have some consequences in terms of teaching students how to handle aggressive situations. Not always the best lesson, unless there is no other option. After all, we lose points for having to thump them, we ought to be able to control them verbally or with our "presence", long before it reaches the point of us banging on them.

Still, I bet it was entertaining.

-Michael
 

DArnold

Purple Belt
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
337
Reaction score
5
Location
Westminster, CO, USA
kmguy8 said:
wow... ok, I would never allow a walk in to spar on thier first day. regardless of experience claimed (90% of the time that's crap anyway).

At my school I insist students spend a week or two if experienced training so I can see them move. 1-2 months before I let a newbie throw leather and feet.

Second, after the first warning I would have been watching or put a senior on him as was recomended. Second time he would have been asked to sit and watch or be asked to leave.

If I let him make to a third time the last hting I would do is beat him up myself. jesus, that is BEGGING for a lawsuit. If one of my assistants did this in my school they would be fired. You can not throw your own saftey rules away, it is negligent and your contract limiting your liability (assuming you are at least that bright) is worthless...

the instructor is lucky he was not waiting outside with a cop. I would start training elsewhere if your school is taking this jack-*** as a student. would you really spar with him again?

*total disbelief*

I think you have some good rules for beginners.
But this will not stop the situation from happening.

It sound like you are unfamiliar with the ways/history of Martial arts. A students can come in any time and challenge a class/instructor.

I have seen many times, people get to step three of your scenario and the student will challenge the instructor.

Then what?

I came from a school with some three hundred students and it used to happen all the time. We used to get all the nutballs. It got to a point where it was an honor to handle this for our red belts (They used to argue about who got to handle the problem and my instructor would choose who was to defend the honor of the class).
This does not mean we were some brawling class, far from it. If you can't controll yourself, then we would show you why you should. There is always somebody better and an ego will get an adjustment.
Our motto was we will go as hard as anybody wants. Just know we will hit what we want, when we want, as hard as we want.

If one of my assistants did this in my school they would be fired.
You must mean "beat on juniors" right?

Because it would be hard to belive you are saying, "don't defend yourself for fear you may get sued."

I couldn't immagine backing down everytime a student got out of line or teaching this when someone is swinging at you.
It would be nice if I could protect all of my students but it only takes 1/4 of a second for a problem to arise.

Pain is a wonderful teacher.

the instructor is lucky he was not waiting outside with a cop.
As this is the US we all know anyone can sue, at anytime, for no reason. But there is nothing this guy has that would hold up.
What is he going to say "I went in and challenged this class and instructor, and he won..."

Other than that he would have to lie against several witnesses.

It really doesn't matter the situation, expect to get sued anytime you defend yourself.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
428
Location
Cromwell,CT
Michael Billings said:
I seldom let someone I do not know spar with us, unless vouched for by one of my students. That being said, I have allowed it in the past, but probably should not have.

Good point. I've taken part in some sparring sessions with other schools, but as you said, it has always been on the recommendation of A) someone that I know from that school, B) someone that my inst. knows at the school, etc., and when I have gone, it was simply to get in some sparring practice and have a good time. I never walked in with the "Ok, I'm here to kick some butt" attitude.

Mike
 
K

kmguy8

Guest
I think you have some good rules for beginners.
But this will not stop the situation from happening.

Thank you, but i disagree

It sound like you are unfamiliar with the ways/history of Martial arts. A students can come in any time and challenge a class/instructor.

this is a very condecending way to begin. I have over 20 years experience and have 7 pro MMA fights and countless amatuer fights, not to mention BJJ and judo tournements....maybe in the old-times challenge matches went on regularly - in modern times they are a thing of the past

I have seen many times, people get to step three of your scenario and the student will challenge the instructor.

Then what?
then they spar by our rules or get the hell out...if they refuse to leave or flat out attack someone then they will be removed in force not given the chance to fight and prove themselves...

I came from a school with some three hundred students and it used to happen all the time. We used to get all the nutballs. It got to a point where it was an honor to handle this for our red belts (They used to argue about who got to handle the problem and my instructor would choose who was to defend the honor of the class).
This does not mean we were some brawling class, far from it. If you can't controll yourself, then we would show you why you should. There is always somebody better and an ego will get an adjustment.
Our motto was we will go as hard as anybody wants. Just know we will hit what we want, when we want, as hard as we want.
dangerous and foolhardy... what if they bring in a knife and want to go with live blades? then would your macho standards require you to eleveate to that level? why not swords?

If one of my assistants did this in my school they would be fired.
You must mean "beat on juniors" right?
no I mean if one of my assistant instructors fought no rules with someone in one of my classes because they were trying to prove a point to the student or somejackass that had walked in they would be fired... asked to leave - they have proven themselves in the ring and should not feel the need to test themselves or run the risk of personla injury for either party

Because it would be hard to belive you are saying, "don't defend yourself for fear you may get sued."
not unless you need to - NO you should not. if he came in swinging thats one thing, first - you ask him to leave, then you throw him out - several of you... why indulge him?

I couldn't immagine backing down everytime a student got out of line or teaching this when someone is swinging at you.
It would be nice if I could protect all of my students but it only takes 1/4 of a second for a problem to arise.
there is a difference between backing down and understanding the setting. a class setting is not a fight, even sparring is not a fight it is prep work for a fight. why do you have to accept the chalenge of a man off the street.. I fight pro fighters and win (and have lost twice) I do not need to rewspond to this person's challenge.. nor should any of my students... why risk our saftey to prove ourselves to that jack-***? he can come to our fights or train as we train and then cget an idea of our abilities.. if he wants to brawl, bit and grab & kick nuts.. GET OUT and get real - if he is that good I'll give him the number of my promoter and he can book a fight w/me (by the way that is the modern master's challange match - welcome to the 21st century)


Pain is a wonderful teacher.
yep

the instructor is lucky he was not waiting outside with a cop.
As this is the US we all know anyone can sue, at anytime, for no reason. But there is nothing this guy has that would hold up.
What is he going to say "I went in and challenged this class and instructor, and he won..."
i suggest you ask your attorney about this - your mistaken. the law will most likely hol dyou to a higher stadard assuming you are the trained beople and "had no need to hurt them" - you can thank the movies. plus, no court in the US will accept that your sparring methods and training methods were reasonable if you are allowing full-force groin shots, eye-gouges, live blades w/ a newbie, etc...

Other than that he would have to lie against several witnesses.
nope, just have photos of his injuries and settle with your insurance agency who might very well refuse to pay and sue you for not following the resrtictions placed on your policies

It really doesn't matter the situation, expect to get sued anytime you defend yourself.
wrong again tough guy, while it is a good assumption when self-defense trainning is actually used in self-defense not fights brought on by pride you are ussually ok..
 

celtic_crippler

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
3,968
Reaction score
137
Location
Airstrip One
The MMA kid! said:
I did wear a cup, the blow was so direct and forcefull, i was still feeling the pain. though it greatly reduced the pain that i would have felt.

I too have worn the purple triangle of pain! LOL.
 

jdinca

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
1,297
Reaction score
11
Location
SF Bay Area
Sounds like he thought he was tough and discovered that wasn't the case. I am surprised that your instructor let it happen more than once. The second time, he should have been asked to stand and observe, or have been asked to leave. It'll be interesting to hear how he does at the school.

Not knowing squat about MMA, is new students going right into the ring like this common? I know that MMA is primarily for the ring, so I would think that it probably is but I am curious.
 

DavidCC

Master of Arts
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
1,938
Reaction score
31
Location
Nebraska
I've been kicked in the groin many times and they never felt like they were "on fire". :idunno:
 

AceHBK

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,325
Reaction score
14
Location
Arizona
The fact the instructor let it go on more than twice makes me raise an eyebrow.
 

SAVAGE

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Messages
274
Reaction score
4
your instructor was wrong....he is there to ensure the students safety and that day the tall "black" dude (I wonder if he was white, red, yellow or pink with purple polka dots...if it would have made a difference) was one of his students.

By what right did your instructor have to pummel this man, he should have asked him to leave...what he did was lose his temper and then brought a "teach this "black" guy a lesson" attitude....if this is what your "father" is teaching you....time to look for a new daddy!

Your instructor shows him the door for using illegal...possibly fatal strikes....after he has punched him several times behind the ear and rains elbows down onto the back of his head (they may be legal..but they are potentially fatal...especially the behind the ear shots)...what if the "black" fellow died....hmmmmm.....I smell a hypocrite!

I am sorry if this offends you...I am in no way condoning what the "black" fellow did..but your instructor reacted in teh same fashion...I wonder what he was trying to prove!

I find it also very disturbing that you found your instructor beating on a self taught martial artists or anyone for that matter....ENTERTAINING!

Your instructor:

1) Let him fight without knowing whio he was...or how he was taught!

2) Let him continue fighting after it was obvious that he was not a safe fighter to spar with!

3) Allowed you to get kicked in the nuts!

4) Got angry...and beat someone to prove he was:

a) Right
b) The man
c) Tough
d) The boss

I dont know but I would be interested to find out!

5) Then kicked the "black" man out of the class...after demonstartiong the same violent behaviour!

Also one last thing...maybe you noticed "black"...in my post...are you a racist...is there some kind of glory associated with beating a "black" man....why did you make this point in the very beggining of your post...are you trying to say that "black" men are more prone to violent tendencies....please explain this!
 

rutherford

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
13
Location
Vermont, USA
Guys, this thread is a month old. Also, Savage, I agree that his skin color shouldn't have been mentioned, we're all colorless here and it's uinimportant. However, I think you took your point a bit far.

The MMA kid!, have you trained with this guy again? How's it going?
 

SAVAGE

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Messages
274
Reaction score
4
rutherford said:
Guys, this thread is a month old. Also, Savage, I agree that his skin color shouldn't have been mentioned, we're all colorless here and it's uinimportant. However, I think you took your point a bit far.
I think I didnt take it far enough....there are lots of people who have these attitudes..I just wanted MMA kid to clear up why it was important to mention that he was black!

I am not black...but I am brown (the blacks of the south pacific)and we are all colored people...whatever your colour...how would this forum take it if I poster that I beat the crap out of a 6 2 White Fellow! rather than say i took on a 6 2 martial artist!

I humbly apologise to the forum..I feel strongly about this....please take the thread back on topic...move along nothing to see here!
 
Top