My coconut break

[Krisxylove]

Not saying you can’t study it and stretch and exercise, but some things like iron palm, bell, post, or wire can be injurious if done incorrectly over time. I can’t imagine being able to get the nuances without a teacher, but hey, I’m not you and I’m not in charge, do you. I teach an overhead punch that can wreck your shoulder if practiced incorrectly with a lot of force, just as an example, it’s not because of any mystical anything.

That's it, I was asking if you meant anything mystical. Just because I've heard about some warnings before. Thanks for clearing that up. But you're totally right with the iron palm and I feel you on proper instruction of technique. Practicing on your own is best case scenario the hard way and worst case scenario the wrong way.

 

[Krisxylove]

By way of example, when Tibetan Crane is done correctly all the movements are natural and should not cause injury to yourself. However, in the process of learning the method it is inevitable that it will NOT be done correctly, probably for some time. It takes a lot of repetition and repetitious corrections from a teacher who knows what he/she is talking about, before the student is consistently doing it correctly. If you do it incorrectly for long enough, you will end up with wrecked knees, wrecked shoulders, and wrecked lower back. Proper instruction is important. This is an example of how the physical training can injure you if you try and go it alone, without good instruction. My example of Tibetan Crane is especially appropriate here because it is a method that, to most people, looks odd. People do not know what to make of it. So it is very easy to get it wrong.

Internal, or Qi-gong training carries the same risks, but they are more subtle. They sometimes require unusual breathing patterns that might put stress on the cardio-vascular system. The physical side of this stuff, like iron palm, requires quality dit-da-jow, the liniment used during and after sessions to heal properly, in addition to quality instruction. If you do not have the proper jow, or any jow at all, or lack quality instruction, you are asking for trouble.

The big problem is, signs of trouble might come very slowly until the damage has been done. You do not realize you are injuring yourself and might keep doing so for a long time. This is especially true with the internal training. Once that happens, you’ve got a problem.

I have a personal theory that perhaps all training such as iron palm may ultimately lead to injury, regardless of your jow and the quality of your training. It may be that in ages gone, people gained the benefits of such training in the short term, but the general hard life of a peasant in a world without modern medicine and sanitation meant that most people simply did not live long enough to realize the damage they were doing to themselves. In the modern age with modern medicine and sanitation and people living into their 70s and up, perhaps only now do we recognize the damage inherent in such training. We are living long enough for those subtle and gradual injuries to make themselves known.

@Krisxylove, I used @Wing Woo Gar ‘s post as a tool to build upon with my thoughts, but this is simply to say that you are getting some good advice here: without good instruction you are likely to have a lot of frustration in your training, and some of it can actually be dangerous. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but if there is any way that you can, you must find a good teacher.

This is such an informative post. This gave me a lot to think about. Thank you!

The big problem is, signs of trouble might come very slowly until the damage has been done. You do not realize you are injuring yourself and might keep doing so for a long time. This is especially true with the internal training.

This has been a concern of mine especially in regards to the internal training. But most of the warnings I saw were related to probing too deep in an organ massage, any kind of hitting or pounding too early in training. Or doing xi sui jing before enough yi jin jing. Or doing grand circulation without enough small circulation. I would hate for my belly breathing meditation to like destroy an organ system or something crazy. But you're right, without the right guidance maybe I'm doing damage that I don't realize yet. Thank you

 

[Badhabits]

Krisxylove, these guys are giving you some really good advise. Even just the basic stuff can wreck your joints especially if you're not careful. Something as simple as not pivoting a foot enough can stress your knee....and you won't necessarily know it until weeks or months later when that knee starts throbbing and giving out at odd times during daily life

 

[Krisxylove]

Krisxylove, these guys are giving you some really good advise. Even just the basic stuff can wreck your joints especially if you're not careful. Something as simple as not pivoting a foot enough can stress your knee....and you won't necessarily know it until weeks or months later when that knee starts throbbing and giving out at odd times during daily life

OMG I've had so many issues with my knees. I figured out that I was using mostly quads and not glutes in things like t-stance. And keeping my knees too loose when pivoting. Being too heavy on my feet caused a lot of problems too I think. You guys are scaring me lol. But I really appreciate the support and the honest critique. Especially since I've been in my own little bubble for all of my training, it's important for me to learn from other people's experience.

And just to be a brat. I have 5 forms locked in. They have become mine now. I'm even practicing sections of them in reverse. I'm concerned that I will have to either find a teacher in those forms, in a far away state, or else abandon them for the forms of whichever local teacher.

But all of you really made me think, why am I so committed to this while still not seeking guidance? You all are right I should really find help.

Thanks again and I'm open book taking in what all of you are saying.

 

[Flying Crane]

OMG I've had so many issues with my knees. I figured out that I was using mostly quads and not glutes in things like t-stance. And keeping my knees too loose when pivoting. Being too heavy on my feet caused a lot of problems too I think. You guys are scaring me lol. But I really appreciate the support and the honest critique. Especially since I've been in my own little bubble for all of my training, it's important for me to learn from other people's experience.

And just to be a brat. I have 5 forms locked in. They have become mine now. I'm even practicing sections of them in reverse. I'm concerned that I will have to either find a teacher in those forms, in a far away state, or else abandon them for the forms of whichever local teacher.

But all of you really made me think, why am I so committed to this while still not seeking guidance? You all are right I should really find help.

Thanks again and I'm open book taking in what all of you are saying.

Don’t worry about changing forms if you find a local teacher. Forms are not the end product of kung fu or any martial art that uses them (many do not). Forms are simply a tool to use in training, to help you develop skills. They were not meant to be performance art, although they are often used as such. When properly understood and trained appropriately, they can be very useful. When poorly understood and improperly trained, they can do more damage than good. Don’t get married to a form of a group of forms, especially if you find someone who can teach you properly and may use a different set of forms in that training. I’ve trained in a number of different systems over the decades and I’ve probably learned somewhere around 70-80 forms. Most of those I have not trained in years and probably do not remember them anymore. I’ve kept the forms from the system that I felt was best for me, the one that I connected with the most and made the most sense as a methodology, for me. I only do the forms from that system now, and it is plenty.

I will be honest, I do not feel it is a good idea to try and learn this stuff from video. There are simply too many subtle details that get missed and it puts the responsibility on your shoulders, as a beginner, to identify and correct your own mistakes. That is entirely unreasonable. Video can be used as a supplemental resource if you are already getting quality instruction from someone. But even then, you need to be careful of what video you use because there could be contradictions and conflicts from what you are being taught.

And as we already have been discussing, there can be genuine risks of injury from developing bad training habits or working on poorly understood material.

It seems that you have a lot of interest in the Chinese methods. I agree with you, they can be excellent. But a better approach is to find a skilled instructor who can teach you well, regardless of what style it is. That is a better road to take than trying to figure it out by yourself on something for which you cannot get good instruction. So look and see what is available in your area. Maybe later in life you will find yourself in a different situation where you have an opportunity To train in a different system for which you have harbored interest. Life has a way of changing. Maybe you move to a new city and find new opportunities, or maybe someone moves to your community and they can teach something new.

May I ask, in what area do you live, are you in or near a city or in a small town? In what state of life are you, meaning are you a student or are you a working adult or whatever? Maybe change is in your future. When I finished college I moved from a small town in Wisconsin to San Francisco, so I could get involved with the martial arts offerings there. You might consider some life-changes, if they make sense in your circumstances.

 

[Flying Crane]

OMG I've had so many issues with my knees. I figured out that I was using mostly quads and not glutes in things like t-stance. And keeping my knees too loose when pivoting. Being too heavy on my feet caused a lot of problems too I think.

Your body is sending you some messages. Don’t ignore that.

 

[Gyakuto]

I do recognize that I'm in an early stage in my training. Also I've never considered the defensive applications from any of the movements so that makes me a newbie compared to a lot of people here. My experience this far is really monkey see monkey do. And learning the forms from youtube really forced me to slow everything down and internalize it until I get the smooth and coordinated flow to where I can do it quickly and it feels right. I definitely was not making an argument for training without a teacher though. I would love to have a teacher I'm probably initial stage X factor lol. I've just seen monks who demonstrate luohan quan that I don't care too much about and other monks who I'd much rather imitate. Even if it's just a personal preference.

Unlike the X Factor-brigade, you seem very self-aware of the issues of Yootoob Sifu. May I ask why you haven’t sought a physical teacher? Are you looking for a particular art/style that isn’t available in your area?

 

[Badhabits]

OMG I've had so many issues with my knees. I figured out that I was using mostly quads and not glutes in things like t-stance. And keeping my knees too loose when pivoting. Being too heavy on my feet caused a lot of problems too I think. You guys are scaring me lol. But I really appreciate the support and the honest critique. Especially since I've been in my own little bubble for all of my training, it's important for me to learn from other people's experience.

And just to be a brat. I have 5 forms locked in. They have become mine now. I'm even practicing sections of them in reverse. I'm concerned that I will have to either find a teacher in those forms, in a far away state, or else abandon them for the forms of whichever local teacher.

But all of you really made me think, why am I so committed to this while still not seeking guidance? You all are right I should really find help.

Thanks again and I'm open book taking in what all of you are saying.

Being committed is good! Don't give that up. But you will need to seek out a teacher if you're that committed. That commitment will force you to find one. Especially with forms, you'll hit a dead end eventually if you don't. Every single little part of your body should be doing something specific. It's just too much subtlety to figure out on your own. You analyze every little movement, every single muscle involved in a specific movement. And just as important, which muscles should not be activated during that movement. Something as simple as throwing a straight punch involves way more than you'd think. It's all the little things that aren't obvious that come together to make your forms look like art when you perform them.

 

[jks9199]

OMG I've had so many issues with my knees. I figured out that I was using mostly quads and not glutes in things like t-stance. And keeping my knees too loose when pivoting. Being too heavy on my feet caused a lot of problems too I think. You guys are scaring me lol. But I really appreciate the support and the honest critique. Especially since I've been in my own little bubble for all of my training, it's important for me to learn from other people's experience.

And just to be a brat. I have 5 forms locked in. They have become mine now. I'm even practicing sections of them in reverse. I'm concerned that I will have to either find a teacher in those forms, in a far away state, or else abandon them for the forms of whichever local teacher.

But all of you really made me think, why am I so committed to this while still not seeking guidance? You all are right I should really find help.

Thanks again and I'm open book taking in what all of you are saying.

The advantage of having a teacher is that they can identify and guide you to the proper positions or angles. There are often subtle pieces and elements to a stance or form that, if you're not taught, you probably are not going to find... Or at least not without a significant price in damage to your body. Pivot with your weight in the wrong place, and you damage your knees. It may look right but because you're weight is on the ball of the foot or even too much on one foot, your knee is torn.

You mention "having 5 forms." When you finally get yourself with a teacher, you almost certainly will have to abandon what you think you know for what they are teaching. There's an old story about a master filling a teacup that comes to mind...

Where are you; there is a good chance someone here may know of a teacher near enough that you can train with them.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

OMG I've had so many issues with my knees. I figured out that I was using mostly quads and not glutes in things like t-stance. And keeping my knees too loose when pivoting. Being too heavy on my feet caused a lot of problems too I think. You guys are scaring me lol. But I really appreciate the support and the honest critique. Especially since I've been in my own little bubble for all of my training, it's important for me to learn from other people's experience.

And just to be a brat. I have 5 forms locked in. They have become mine now. I'm even practicing sections of them in reverse. I'm concerned that I will have to either find a teacher in those forms, in a far away state, or else abandon them for the forms of whichever local teacher.

But all of you really made me think, why am I so committed to this while still not seeking guidance? You all are right I should really find help.

Thanks again and I'm open book taking in what all of you are saying.

I think you sound like you have an open mind and understand the issues. I hope you don’t see this as negative critique, it isn’t. We all appreciate your openness and honesty and want you to get what you are after. These guys are a wealth of information on MT. If you are comfortable telling us what area you are in, I’m betting someone here can locate a teacher for you. Best of luck in your martial arts journey! Please keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Krisxylove]

Don’t worry about changing forms if you find a local teacher. Forms are not the end product of kung fu or any martial art that uses them (many do not). Forms are simply a tool to use in training, to help you develop skills. They were not meant to be performance art, although they are often used as such. When properly understood and trained appropriately, they can be very useful. When poorly understood and improperly trained, they can do more damage than good. Don’t get married to a form of a group of forms, especially if you find someone who can teach you properly and may use a different set of forms in that training. I’ve trained in a number of different systems over the decades and I’ve probably learned somewhere around 70-80 forms. Most of those I have not trained in years and probably do not remember them anymore. I’ve kept the forms from the system that I felt was best for me, the one that I connected with the most and made the most sense as a methodology, for me. I only do the forms from that system now, and it is plenty.

I will be honest, I do not feel it is a good idea to try and learn this stuff from video. There are simply too many subtle details that get missed and it puts the responsibility on your shoulders, as a beginner, to identify and correct your own mistakes. That is entirely unreasonable. Video can be used as a supplemental resource if you are already getting quality instruction from someone. But even then, you need to be careful of what video you use because there could be contradictions and conflicts from what you are being taught.

And as we already have been discussing, there can be genuine risks of injury from developing bad training habits or working on poorly understood material.

It seems that you have a lot of interest in the Chinese methods. I agree with you, they can be excellent. But a better approach is to find a skilled instructor who can teach you well, regardless of what style it is. That is a better road to take than trying to figure it out by yourself on something for which you cannot get good instruction. So look and see what is available in your area. Maybe later in life you will find yourself in a different situation where you have an opportunity To train in a different system for which you have harbored interest. Life has a way of changing. Maybe you move to a new city and find new opportunities, or maybe someone moves to your community and they can teach something new.

May I ask, in what area do you live, are you in or near a city or in a small town? In what state of life are you, meaning are you a student or are you a working adult or whatever? Maybe change is in your future. When I finished college I moved from a small town in Wisconsin to San Francisco, so I could get involved with the martial arts offerings there. You might consider some life-changes, if they make sense in your circumstances.

I found my local teacher an hour away. He does hung gar and long fist. Long fist looks very similar to what I do. It's defiantly related and relevant I think.

I was doing some research last night and found that the monk who I learned 3 forms from lives right here in the US!! I work remotely so I'm flexible and it looks like I just might be heading to California! I'm so dumb I learned from an old scratchy video from when he was in China and I never thought to look him up

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Honestly, even when done correctly, some of those iron palm/chest/etc. type things can mess up your body. It's toughening it up for combat, not for typing away at a computer or playing an instrument, so the focus wasn't for that sort of thing. Simple example is look up something like "karate master knuckles" or "iron palm knuckles" on google images and see if you want to risk your hand looking like that.

 

[Stuarto]

I found my local teacher an hour away. He does hung gar and long fist. Long fist looks very similar to what I do. It's defiantly related and relevant I think.

I was doing some research last night and found that the monk who I learned 3 forms from lives right here in the US!! I work remotely so I'm flexible and it looks like I just might be heading to California! I'm so dumb I learned from an old scratchy video from when he was in China and I never thought to look him up

Glad to hear you were able to locate him

 

[Krisxylove]

Unlike the X Factor-brigade, you seem very self-aware of the issues of Yootoob Sifu. May I ask why you haven’t sought a physical teacher? Are you looking for a particular art/style that isn’t available in your area?

As you know Shaolin is pretty famous. When I decided that I wanted to learn I scoured the internet for their foundational forms. I know it's heavily debated what they are exactly. I quickly learned that when I watch 10 people practicing the same form they almost looked like different forms. So I picked the monk who's demonstration I most connected with. Like when I saw Chang Hu Xin Yi Men I just knew that I had to learn it. To me, emotionally it was the most powerful thing I've ever seen like a spirit calling to me (not literally of course). I don't know who if anyone teaches it but I just had to learn. So that's kind of been my thought process up to now and thanks to you all I'm going to look for people to practice with.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I found my local teacher an hour away. He does hung gar and long fist. Long fist looks very similar to what I do. It's defiantly related and relevant I think.

I was doing some research last night and found that the monk who I learned 3 forms from lives right here in the US!! I work remotely so I'm flexible and it looks like I just might be heading to California! I'm so dumb I learned from an old scratchy video from when he was in China and I never thought to look him up

Hung Gar is where you can get Tid Sin Kuen ( iron wire ).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I found my local teacher an hour away. He does hung gar and long fist. Long fist looks very similar to what I do. It's defiantly related and relevant I think.

I was doing some research last night and found that the monk who I learned 3 forms from lives right here in the US!! I work remotely so I'm flexible and it looks like I just might be heading to California! I'm so dumb I learned from an old scratchy video from when he was in China and I never thought to look him up

Where in California? What is the teachers name?

 

[Krisxylove]

Every single little part of your body should be doing something specific. It's just too much subtlety to figure out on your own. You analyze every little movement, every single muscle involved in a specific movement. And just as important, which muscles should not be activated during that movement.

You captured this concept so well. I was inspired by Yan Lei when he was frustrated with sitting still meditation. When he went to his teacher with his frustration, his teacher said, "let your gongfu be your meditation". This internalization to the sensations within the body has made my training into something more. It is romantic and beautiful.

Also you made a really good point. If I am this committed than I would find a teacher. Wise words thank you

 

[Krisxylove]

Pivot with your weight in the wrong place, and you damage your knees. It may look right but because you're weight is on the ball of the foot or even too much on one foot, your knee is torn.

I have learned this the hard way

When you finally get yourself with a teacher, you almost certainly will have to abandon what you think you know for what they are teaching.

I know what you mean but just to be cute, I'll have to break both my legs before I abandon my forms. But of course to your point, I'll end up breaking both my legs without the proper guidance

there is a good chance someone here may know of a teacher near enough that you can train with them

Why didn't I think of that? lol. I live in Lexington. A nearby bigger town is Staunton. I found a school, Tai Chi Kung Fu Tao. The teacher is Brian Weaver.

 

[Krisxylove]

I hope you don’t see this as negative critique, it isn’t. We all appreciate your openness and honesty and want you to get what you are after.

That is very kind, thank you

Where in California? What is the teachers name?

Shi Yanxu. He has a school in LA. I still have to look through his website. I feel dumb that I practice something so near and dear to my heart and I never thought to look into who I learned it from.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have learned this the hard way

I know what you mean but just to be cute, I'll have to break both my legs before I abandon my forms. But of course to your point, I'll end up breaking both my legs without the proper guidance

Why didn't I think of that? lol. I live in Lexington. A nearby bigger town is Staunton. I found a school, Tai Chi Kung Fu Tao. The teacher is Brian Weaver.

Lexington KY? If you are there you should look up @Tony Dismukes!