Muk Yan Jong Form

[Transk53]

Hey all, Had a conversation with a Wing Chunner that I know. It regarded the use of the wooden dummy, or as you peeps would say Muk Yan Jong. For a start he said it was the fifth form, I understand to be the fourth. Anyway whatever the case, do you have to complete the three empty hands before you start using a dummy? This I assume would what would be the class curriculum. This Wing Chunner says that he has bought a dummy with which to practice.

Now I cannot verify or debunk his claims that he has gone beyond the first forms, I don’t want to be disbelieving, but if you need what comes before, would there be any point in getting a dummy. Can you practice effectively without arriving at the time of going to Muk Yan Jong? May seem a silly question, but I was thinking of the conditioning that a person, or myself, that would come from the wood (or hard plastic). I imagine it would be a little painful at first. In addition to this, I am thinking that it would be a few years before you got anywhere near one. Thoughts?

 

[Reeksta]

I can only speak of my limited experience within my own lineage, but - although you are correct that the dummy form is learned after the empty hand forms - our sifu gets us all to use the mook for certain drills every now and again. If there are an odd number of people in class and someone is left without a partner they will often be told to use the mook too.
To answer your question then, for someone from our school you could probably wring some utility from having your own mook before learning the form but it would be very limited. As far as conditioning goes, we are told that this isn't the dummy's purpose and are discouraged from striking it with any great amount of force.

 

[Transk53]

I can only speak of my limited experience within my own lineage, but - although you are correct that the dummy form is learned after the empty hand forms - our sifu gets us all to use the mook for certain drills every now and again. If there are an odd number of people in class and someone is left without a partner they will often be told to use the mook too.
To answer your question then, for someone from our school you could probably wring some utility from having your own mook before learning the form but it would be very limited. As far as conditioning goes, we are told that this isn't the dummy's purpose and are discouraged from striking it with any great amount of force.

Do you have the full size ones with the elephant trunk? (not sure what that is called officially) It is difficult for to gauge that one, I have never seen any practitioner use one. Thought I was going to see the apparatus, in this case a half sized one on a wall, at the first JKD school. Transpired to be one of those pretty web page pictures. So basically all the talk I have heard from the Wing Chunner, may well be true, but still a little pointless to train.

 

[Reeksta]

Do you have the full size ones with the elephant trunk? (not sure what that is called officially) It is difficult for to gauge that one, I have never seen any practitioner use one. Thought I was going to see the apparatus, in this case a half sized one on a wall, at the first JKD school. Transpired to be one of those pretty web page pictures. So basically all the talk I have heard from the Wing Chunner, may well be true, but still a little pointless to train.

Yeah the one at our school is a full size with a leg (I don't know what the proper name is either). From what I see of the more advanced students, the leg seems pretty important for using the mook as far as wing chun goes

 

[Transk53]

Yeah the one at our school is a full size with a leg (I don't know what the proper name is either). From what I see of the more advanced students, the leg seems pretty important for using the mook as far as wing chun goes

From what I can imagine, it would for the front kicks. Supposed to simulate trapping? I think.

 

[Reeksta]

From what I can imagine, it would for the front kicks. Supposed to simulate trapping? I think.

Yeah that's my understanding too

 

[Danny T]

Hey all, Had a conversation with a Wing Chunner that I know. It regarded the use of the wooden dummy, or as you peeps would say Muk Yan Jong. For a start he said it was the fifth form, I understand to be the fourth. Anyway whatever the case, do you have to complete the three empty hands before you start using a dummy? This I assume would what would be the class curriculum. This Wing Chunner says that he has bought a dummy with which to practice.

Now I cannot verify or debunk his claims that he has gone beyond the first forms, I don’t want to be disbelieving, but if you need what comes before, would there be any point in getting a dummy. Can you practice effectively without arriving at the time of going to Muk Yan Jong? May seem a silly question, but I was thinking of the conditioning that a person, or myself, that would come from the wood (or hard plastic). I imagine it would be a little painful at first. In addition to this, I am thinking that it would be a few years before you got anywhere near one. Thoughts?

I use the jong early for a lot of drills with my students. They start learning the first half of the form while learning Chum Kiu.
In our training the jong isn't used for tempering (though it can be) it is for refining and fine tuning structure, positioning, and proper presentation. Because of this it is important the jong is sized for the individual. The height, the angle of the arms, the holes are square with movement in them, the taper of the arms are all for fine tuning. The arms and legs are presented into the jong to positioning the arms within the hole into the upper outer corner or inner corner base upon what the pressure is or even to move from the upper outer to the upper inner to the lower inner is some actions. It is about position, control and applying the proper pressure (energy) in the proper place. It isn't about striking the arms or legs as hard as you can.

 

[Transk53]

I use the jong early for a lot of drills with my students. They start learning the first half of the form while learning Chum Kiu.
In our training the jong isn't used for tempering (though it can be) it is for refining and fine tuning structure, positioning, and proper presentation. Because of this it is important the jong is sized for the individual. The height, the angle of the arms, the holes are square with movement in them, the taper of the arms are all for fine tuning. The arms and legs are presented into the jong to positioning the arms within the hole into the upper outer corner or inner corner base upon what the pressure is or even to move from the upper outer to the upper inner to the lower inner is some actions. It is about position, control and applying the proper pressure (energy) in the proper place. It isn't about striking the arms or legs as hard as you can.

Think you should change your username to "Guru" Okay, that clears it up for me. Thanks

 

[Marnetmar]

Can you practice effectively without arriving at the time of going to Muk Yan Jong? May seem a silly question, but I was thinking of the conditioning that a person, or myself, that would come from the wood (or hard plastic). I imagine it would be a little painful at first. In addition to this, I am thinking that it would be a few years before you got anywhere near one. Thoughts?

You can certainly practice effectively before you start training the dummy. That said however, the dummy is a fundamental building block and IMO somebody who wants to get really good at WC should learn to that level. As for conditioning, the dummy will probably hurt a bit at first and it will naturally condition you, because, you know, you're hitting a hard surface, but that's not the main purpose of the dummy. The real purpose of the dummy is to teach you proper angles and generation of force.

Also, I haven't heard of the dummy ever being the fifth form. Did he say what comes before it?

 

[Transk53]

You can certainly practice effectively before you start training the dummy. That said however, the dummy is a fundamental building block and IMO somebody who wants to get really good at WC should learn to that level. As for conditioning, the dummy will probably hurt a bit at first and it will naturally condition you, because, you know, you're hitting a hard surface, but that's not the main purpose of the dummy. The real purpose of the dummy is to teach you proper angles and generation of force.

Also, I haven't heard of the dummy ever being the fifth form. Did he say what comes before it?

No he didn't. That is the thing though. I obviously don't have the knowledge to contradict him in anyway. We Brits do have a saying though "take what he (she, they) says with a pinch of salt" Basically I am not sure that I would get the answers I seek if you know what I am saying. But yeah, you peeps have been very helpful.

The majority of all Wing Chun sects, inside and outside of the Ip Man line, either have one or all of these six Wing Chun forms in their system and it will be called by the same name.

1. Sil Lum Tao (小念頭 Little Idea)
2. Chum Kiu (尋桥 Bridging the Gap)
3. Biu Ji (标指 Thrusting Fingers)
4. Mook Yan Jong (木人樁 Wooden Dummy)
5. Baat Jam Dao (八斩刀 Butterfly Swords/Eight Cut Swords)
6. Look Dim Boon Grun (六点半杆 Dragon Pole/Six and Half Point Pole)

These are the six forms you’ll see and learn about in any Ip Man lineage, Wing Chun school around the world.


One thing I do for sure, the school I will be attending is the IP Man lineage. So according to the above, it would be the fourth form. How is it with other lineages, the same?

 

[yak sao]

The majority of all Wing Chun sects, inside and outside of the Ip Man line, either have one or all of these six Wing Chun forms in their system and it will be called by the same name.

1. Sil Lum Tao (小念頭 Little Idea)
2. Chum Kiu (尋桥 Bridging the Gap)
3. Biu Ji (标指 Thrusting Fingers)
4. Mook Yan Jong (木人樁 Wooden Dummy)
5. Baat Jam Dao (八斩刀 Butterfly Swords/Eight Cut Swords)
6. Look Dim Boon Grun (六点半杆 Dragon Pole/Six and Half Point Pole)

These are the six forms you’ll see and learn about in any Ip Man lineage, Wing Chun school around the world.

Just thinking out loud here, but they may teach the tri- podal dummy (saam sing jong) as a form.
Our lineage teaches it only as a set of training drills but I've heard some call it a form.
Also, fut sao WC has a 4th empty hand set...siu baat gwa I believe.

 

[Kwan Sau]

One thing I do for sure, the school I will be attending is the IP Man lineage. So according to the above, it would be the fourth form. How is it with other lineages, the same?

Don't take a website as gospel for how things are taught and their order in the "IP Man" lineage. That list you posted is not accurate for some YPWC kwoons...

 

[Kwan Sau]

Just thinking out loud here, but they may teach the tri- podal dummy (saam sing jong) as a form.
Our lineage teaches it only as a set of training drills but I've heard some call it a form.
Also, fut sao WC has a 4th empty hand set...siu baat gwa I believe.

Was thinking the same thing Yak... tripodals; other "kicking forms"; perhaps even other stuff added or passed down inside that particular family may offset the MYJ learning order...

 

[Transk53]

Just thinking out loud here, but they may teach the tri- podal dummy (saam sing jong) as a form.
Our lineage teaches it only as a set of training drills but I've heard some call it a form.
Also, fut sao WC has a 4th empty hand set...siu baat gwa I believe.

Right okay. Wing Chun seems so different, but so much the same. Can be very confusing to a novice like me!

 

[Transk53]

Don't take a website as gospel for how things are taught and their order in the "IP Man" lineage. That list you posted is not accurate for some YPWC kwoons...

Yeah no worries, that is why you peeps are so valuable to Martial Talk. Well I think so anyway. I would rather have something debunked around here, than a Youtube Jedi as it were!

 

[yak sao]

Right okay. Wing Chun seems so different, but so much the same. Can be very confusing to a novice like me!

With so many different lineages, it can get a bit confusing. But we're all students...some of us have just been at it a bit longer is all.

 

[Vajramusti]

Hey all, Had a conversation with a Wing Chunner that I know. It regarded the use of the wooden dummy, or as you peeps would say Muk Yan Jong.
--------------------------------------------------
FWIW IMO-Working on specific drills after being shown properly is a god thing. But good wing chun training is not a series of techniques. Gradually with minimal local tension shaping the body and the reflexes is an important task.Learning the dummy form and flow is best done after learning the sil lim tao and chumkiu well.
The jong is an invaluable tool.

 

[Transk53]

FWIW IMO-Working on specific drills after being shown properly is a god thing. But good wing chun training is not a series of techniques. Gradually with minimal local tension shaping the body and the reflexes is an important task.Learning the dummy form and flow is best done after learning the sil lim tao and chumkiu well. The jong is an invaluable tool.

Yeah I have realised that myself. I can see how all aspects of the form apply. Like for example that when I first ventured into Wing Chun, the bruises were pretty full on. I was told by a Technician that get used to it in a friendly way. All part of the journey I

 

[Transk53]

Had to cut and paste. My Nokia is a bit of a mare. The quotation marks are not my touchpad dictionary

 

[Marnetmar]

One thing I do for sure, the school I will be attending is the IP Man lineage. So according to the above, it would be the fourth form. How is it with other lineages, the same?

Basically yes, although I think some schools switch the knives and pole around. Something that's interesting to note though is that in mainland styles the forms will be spelled with different characters. (Siu Nim Tau 小念頭 [Little Idea] is Siu Lim Tao 小練套 [Little Training Set], Chum Kiu 尋橋 [Seeking the Bridge/Bridging the Gap] is romanized the same but uses the characters 沉橋 [Sinking the Bridge], etc. I think Bat Jam Dao/Eight Slashing knives becomes some crazy **** like Yin and Yang Life Taking Knives or something lol)