Muay Thai sparring partner goes Kung Fu

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JowGaWolf

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In your video, at 0.20, he sinks into horse stance and then punch.
I need to just show you myself so that you can see the correct way for application development with Jow Ga. So what you are seeing in that video is "Beginner's Horse stance." Beginners often have a tough time positioning their feet at the correct distance for a good horse stance. Beginners are either too narrow or too wide, or just don't know so they stress about it. So the easy way to get beginners to learn horse stance is to teach them to open up like that.

This is why you see many variations of it. But they do similar with the feet.

You'll see similar things for other systems and other similar stances.

If you want to talk purpose of Jow Ga form then it's best if I just do it myself, that way everything will have meaning and function beyond just development.
 
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JowGaWolf

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In this video, at 0.03, he sinks into horse stance and punches at the same time. Even he doesn't move his feet when he does more punches, he changes from horse stance into bow-arrow stance (he doesn't stay in horse stance to do the rest of punches).
The first set of punches while in horse teach 9 different techniques / variations. Shifting into bow teaches 6 techniques, and revisits some of the techniques/ variations while in horse. He doesn't stay in horse to do the rest of the techniques because the other techniques / variations use the bow stance. There is quite a bit that is in just those pieces alone.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I need to just show you myself so that you can see the correct way for application development with Jow Ga.
What's your opinion on those 2 forms that were created differently? What do you think the form creators tried to tell us?

- In your video, he drops into a horse stance. He then punches many times without moving his legs.

- In my video, he drops into horse stance with a double punch. After that, all his punches are coordinated with his leg movements (horse stance -> bow-arrow stance, bow-arrow stance -> other side bow-arrow stance).
 
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JowGaWolf

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Most CMA systems use the 2nd method instead - try to avoid only move the upper body without moving the low body.
This is advanced and for whatever reason a lot of people have a really tough time doing this and it's probably because CMA is just difficult to do. For us it's not just a jab and step it's a step with everything.
 
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JowGaWolf

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What's your opinion on those 2 forms that were created differently? What do you think the form creators tried to tell us?
Specifically for Jow Ga, I see it as teacher preferences... Sei Pin doesn't look the same all Jow Ga schools.. Some teachers add things and some remove things.

As for what they tried to tell us. That will depend if the teacher was a scholar or if the teacher actually knew how to use the techniques. Scholars tend to want to spread Jow Ga as they were taught. Those who are interested in application tend to be more focus on application and it tends to show in the forms.

If I'm familiar with the teacher then I can tell you specifically what I expect to see in their forms and school based on the teacher.

In your video, he drops into a horse stance. He then punches many times without moving his legs.
Development. Do that enough times and you'll learn on your own how to throw a powerful vertical backfist. Stright punches while in horse stance gives the person a good understanding on driving straight punches from the center vs starting the punch away from the body. This is the same reality for any system that punches in a horse stance. The power generated for the punch is directly how close to the center of the body (Elbows down and in) have better straight punches that use Elbows out. By doing many times the person training will develop the feel of the punch.

- In my video, he drops into horse stance with a double punch. After that, all his punches are coordinated with his leg movements (horse stance -> bow-arrow stance, bow-arrow stance -> other side bow-arrow stance).
Application training. This is what a person does when they train application. It's what is done, when applying a technique against an opponent /Enemey / Sparring partner.. For example, Step and punch at the same time. If your student doesn't know how to punch correctly then you need to first teach that and not worry about step and punch


A form can address both types of training but it's important to know which is which so that Development training isn't applied to application training.. For example, punching in static horse stance is for skill development not application. Similar to how Jump Rope and shadow boxing are skill development training that should not be used as fighting application.
 
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JowGaWolf

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What's your opinion on those 2 forms that were created differently? What do you think the form creators tried to tell us?
Specifically for Jow Ga, I see it as teacher preferences... Sei Pin doesn't look the same all Jow Ga schools.. Some teachers add things and some remove things.

As for what they tried to tell us. That will depend if the teacher was a scholar or if the teacher actually knew how to use the techniques. Scholars tend to want to spread Jow Ga as they were taught. Those who are interested in application tend to be more focus on application and it tends to show in the forms.

If I'm familiar with the teacher then I can tell you specifically what I expect to see in their forms and school based on the teacher.

In your video, he drops into a horse stance. He then punches many times without moving his legs.
Development. Do that enough times and you'll learn on your own how to throw a powerful vertical backfist. Stright punches while in horse stance gives the person a good understanding on driving straight punches from the center vs starting the punch away from the body. This is the same reality for any system that punches in a horse stance. The power generated for the punch is directly how close to the center of the body (Elbows down and in) have better straight punches that use Elbows out. By doing many times the person training will develop the feel of the punch.

- In my video, he drops into horse stance with a double punch. After that, all his punches are coordinated with his leg movements (horse stance -> bow-arrow stance, bow-arrow stance -> other side bow-arrow stance).
Application training. This is what a person does when they train application. It's not what i does when you try to develop skill.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Application training. This is what a person does when they train application. It's not what i does when you try to develop skill.
Why do you even want to have 2 different training methods, one for application training, one for skill training? Will it be better that both training is the same?

If your solo training is "partner training without partner", you won't have this issue.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Why do you even want to have 2 different training methods, one for application training, one for skill training?
One builds skill and the other build application. It's not different than
This builds skill


While this trains application


Do we go straight to application training? Or do we build skill first then application.

Is it possible to play music on the people without building skill first. Is it possible to play the guitar without building skill first? What about baseball?

Martial arts follow the same rules as everything else. First learn skill then apply skill to application.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Do we go straight to application training? Or do we build skill first then application.
You are thinking the traditional way - build foundation fist and develop combat skill after that.

I don't think this way. When we were young, we should spend time to "develop" and "test" our MA skill. When we get older, we will have all the time in the world to "polish" and "enhance" our MA skill.

I assume your "application training" is "partner training", and your "skill training" is "solo (or weight) training".

I prefer to go straight into application. I can then come back to "polish" and "enhance" my application later on. When I do that, my "polish' and "enhance" will not conflict with my application.

It can be confusing if your solo training may conflict with your partner training. For example, in partner training, if you always punch with your legs moving, you should do the same for your solo training as well.

Is there truly more than 1 way to generate power? I only know the "compress and release" method. Without compress, there will be no release.

If you always train "compress and release", suddenly you start to train "release without compress", it can be confused.

spring.jpg


Leg bend - compress.
Legs straight - release.

 
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gyoja

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This is advanced and for whatever reason a lot of people have a really tough time doing this and it's probably because CMA is just difficult to do. For us it's not just a jab and step it's a step with everything.
Im confused as to the specific technique that you are explaining. Are you talking about stepping into a horse stance and punching without twisting the hip?
 
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JowGaWolf

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I prefer to go straight into application. I can then come back to "polish" and "enhance" my application later on.
When you go straight into application with no skills, then what are you enhancing? No skills?

Say you don't know how to fight and you have no punching skills. You jump right into Amateur boxing with no skills? What skills are you going back to polish if you didn't have any to begin with? The only thing that will happen is that you will come to the realization that you should have worked on your skills first., then go to Amateur boxing.

One of the Kung Fu Masters vs MMA has already proven my point. He had no punching skills and jumped right into a punching fight with someone who does. He lost, but came to realization that he should have learned punching skill first so that he would have punching skill to apply.

He took your path and ended up here. If he had taken my path then he would have started here before fighting against an MMA person.


A striker who has no grappling skill jumps into a wrestling match. The only truth he will learn that day is that he needs wrestling skills, and that he should have learned that before getting into a wrestling match.
 

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When you go straight into application with no skills, then what are you enhancing? No skills?
When my students "develop" hip throw,


They have not learned how to "polish" hip throw yet. The solo training come much later than the partner training.


Say you don't know how to fight and you have no punching skills. You jump right into Amateur boxing with no skills? What skills are you going back to polish if you didn't have any to begin with?
You are talking about "test" now. "Test" should be after "develop".

This is "test".

 
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Kung Fu Wang

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He took your path and ended up here.
I have seen so many MA guys who have spend a lot of time to build up their foundation. After they have built up their solid foundation, they are too old to test their MA skill in the ring, or on the mat.

By using my method, people can accumulate fighting experience when they are still young. They can spend the rest of their life to build their solid foundation.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Is there truly more than 1 way to generate power? I only know the "compress and release" method. Without compress, there will be no release.
Yes because there is more than one type of punch.
Straight punch and circular punch do not use the same power generation.
Circular punch and vertical backfist do not use the same power generation.
I also think Jab and Straight punch use different power generation as well.

Im confused as to the specific technique that you are explaining. Are you talking about stepping into a horse stance and punching without twisting the hip?
So, some clarity here.
Kung Wang was speaking of horse stance and straight punch, but what came to my mind was the vertical back fist in Sei Ping. But now I'm focusing on the Straight Punch that Kung Fu wang is talking about it.

So, In Jow Ga we teach Jab + Step together. That's the technique most people have difficulty with. But a lot of the CMA strikes ue the step + punch at the same time even if it's not a jab.
 
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JowGaWolf

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When my students "develop" hip throw,

They have not learned how to "polish" hip throw yet. The solo training come much later than the partner training.

This develop application. Where they throw each other. The solo develops skills.
 
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JowGaWolf

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You are talking about "test" now. "Test" should be after "develop".

This is "test".

This develops application. Test also develops application because you will fail, but you will learn and become better at applying.
 

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