Moving from the center

[theletch1]

I would like to hear how you explain to your students or even classmates (if you aren't an instructor) how to move from the center. I know how to move from the center myself, I've helped a good many people figure out how to do it as well, however, I have a student that just isn't getting it. He's trying to do it but just can't quite seem to make it click. I'm out of ideas. I don't care how silly the suggestion is let's hear it.

 

[Jenna]

Jeff, are you referring to the actual mechanics of moving and driving the inertia from the hips?? Maybe if you said which technique you were trying that might help too..

You know driving with the "hara" is not so easy a concept.. One way I had found with students was to use the tip of a bo or jo have them place it right on that centrepoint below the navel and first have them inch it forward towards me by tensing the muscles around the "hara" point so they knew exactly where their centrepoint was. And then apply just the slightest resistance [not so that it is painful no sir!] then they can proceed to move forwards as though "leading" with the hara.. For the training partner to apply their hands to the student's hips that is ok.. a reasonable approsimation and but not EXACT! Better I think to apply resistance exactly at the centrepoint and but people are understandably sensitive.. I would not put my hand on that part no matter whether the student was male or female and so the bo or jo was useful I found because it is very precise at illustrating the physical point and eliciting the correct method of movement.

Goodness I do not know if that has even answered the question you were asking? You would let me know maybe?? I would like to help! Long time no hear, hope you are keeping yourself well.. Jenna x

 

[Yari]

Hi

I would go for the limbo dance "technique".

Hold a bo across infront of them, ans ask them to go forward. If the stick is low enough they can push the hara forward. You could also tie a belt to his/her belt and pull while doing this.

If the persons lacks a feel of hara /you need this to move it) you'll might have to to breathing techniques to feel and understand hara.

I really don't emphesize that much on practiing just his part, since aikido techniques will put you into a situation that you have to use your hara to get better, and willget better by praticing.

/Yari

 

[theletch1]

Thanks, folks.
Jenna, it's not any particular technique that the fellow is having trouble with. He's progressed to a point with many of his techniques but has hit a plataeu, if you will, and can't truly get those techniques to the next level until he learns to move or lead with the hara. It looks to me as if he's still leading with his shoulders when initiating movement and using his arms/hands to execute technique instead of using them simply as a conduit for flowing ki. I'm having as much difficulty explaining what the problem is as I am with how to "fix" it. I've told other students to think of letting their "naughty bits" lead the way and then fine tune things from there. I do like the drills that you've both put forth and will try them in class this sunday.

 

[jks9199]

Check his hip position in stance; if he's sticking his butt back rather than that slight tuck that straightens the small of the back, he'll have trouble moving from the hips. You might also try using a belt or rope wrapped around the waist, and having him pull you forward while you're behind him. (Kind of like pulling a sled.) Again, if he's not moving from the right place, he'll have a hard time moving you... but it'll be easy if he's moving from his center.

 

[K-man]

Like Jenna said, the question is a little ambiguous. I will share with you what I understand by moving from the centre. To me having a stable centre is number one regardless of the MA. In most cases this involves sinking your weight. Once you are stable you can then perform any technique. (I don't mean 'stable' to be stationary, more a state of upper body relaxation) Moving from the centre for me is then moving the hara either in a straight line, or to the side or in a spiral if you are doing a takedown. The centre moves before the technique is actually performed, and continues throughout the technique, which leads to a broken timing that enhances the technique. By leading from the centre the shoulders will automatically follow, with a fractional delay, if the upper body is relaxed. If the upper body is tense the technique will fail against resistance anyhow. I train it with my guys by standing with arms hanging loose at the sides then twisting the torso back and forth so the arms fly out with the centrifugal force. It can't work if they don't move their centre first.
Clear as mud! :asian:

 

[Jenna]

I do not know, I think the idea is just not simple to explain to any guys just beginning. To me the main issue is in explaining to someone exactly WHERE the centre actually is. I think my approach would be to put resistance - of some form, and there are ideas posted already - at the centre point. Without resistance at AT THAT POINT, it is too difficult for a new learner to visualise what you are talking bout I think.. That is just my experience I have not been teaching in a long time though so.. It is essentially a concept that needs to be turned into physiology and that is not so easy. Forwards movement is simplest to get a hold of.. K-Man has said bout leading from the centre in any direction or blending into or out of rotation and but still, a new beginner will not grasp this too easily. Forwards motion with resistance at hara, hands, rope, I use the jo nice and taut, that will encourage a process of mental assimilation of the concept in the mind of the learner. and it takes a while Jeff you know that yourself I am certain and so you be patient with them and try lots of different things, you know it will click! bingo! all of a sudden and meantime you tell them they are improving!! I know you would do that anyways you are a good teacher I think!! Jenna x

 

[amir]

You can only teach him if he wishes to learn and willing. If he thinks he knows the way - the suggetion below will not work. He wil decide this way is weak and will insist he should train using all his force ("As if I have to fight").



Start with something very "simple": force him to work lightly, without any force from the arms and shoulders. Insist on releasing the arms and shoulders (waving them etc.) before each technique application. Stop him each time he starts to use force instead of movement. When he does things correctly, flow with him - no resistence at all.

Once the concepts start to settle, start reducing the level of cooperation, Uke, instead of e moving as a response to every hint of direction, may start slowing down, making him, as Tori, create more power.


On a second thought - he should also practive being such an Uke - moving to any hint of power\direction, flowing with minor intent. That too should teach him to flow.


Both of these methods may seem "not realistic" or "non practical for fighting", unless you ever tried playing with someone who was soft enough for you not to feel him, and then felt how powerless this made you, being unable to create any force on him.



Amir

 

[K-man]

Start with something very "simple": force him to work lightly, without any force from the arms and shoulders. Insist on releasing the arms and shoulders (waving them etc.) before each technique application. Stop him each time he starts to use force instead of movement. When he does things correctly, flow with him - no resistence at all.

Once the concepts start to settle, start reducing the level of cooperation, Uke, instead of e moving as a response to every hint of direction, may start slowing down, making him, as Tori, create more power.

On a second thought - he should also practive being such an Uke - moving to any hint of power\direction, flowing with minor intent. That too should teach him to flow.

Both of these methods may seem "not realistic" or "non practical for fighting", unless you ever tried playing with someone who was soft enough for you not to feel him, and then felt how powerless this made you, being unable to create any force on him.

Good advice Amir. That is exactly how we train in our aikido and what I am attempting to teach my karate students in grappling. :asian:

 

[amir]

aikido and what I am attempting to teach my karate students in grappling. [/quote]


The problem with my advice, is the human tendency to over do.


One should practice in the way described above, but not only in it. A good Sensei should balance the "classical learning" of moving correctly (and more efficiently) with "practical learning" against resistance and with a non-compliant Uke.

If you only do the first - you (with few aggressive exceptions) will start expecting any attacker to move before you do and help you, and that would make you practice a nice meditation in motion art of movement, but not a M.A.
If you only do the latter - you (with few genius exceptions) will keep using force instead of efficient movement and will never learn anything more advanced then the bare mechanics of the locks (and the latter is not even the tip of the iceberg)

Amir

 

[K-man]

The problem with my advice, is the human tendency to over do.

One should practice in the way described above, but not only in it. A good Sensei should balance the "classical learning" of moving correctly (and more efficiently) with "practical learning" against resistance and with a non-compliant Uke.

If you only do the first - you (with few aggressive exceptions) will start expecting any attacker to move before you do and help you, and that would make you practice a nice meditation in motion art of movement, but not a M.A.
If you only do the latter - you (with few genius exceptions) will keep using force instead of efficient movement and will never learn anything more advanced then the bare mechanics of the locks (and the latter is not even the tip of the iceberg)
Amir

Sorry, my post wasn't clear. We practise against total non-compliance in the Aikido class and with the karate I add a RB scenario to that non-compliance. What it proves without doubt is that strength alone will fail every time. Softness combined with correct technique will normally prevail. An atemi obviously helps but we train not to rely on it as it may be ineffective. What we train is not 'Classical Aikido'. To make it work you must move from your centre. :asian:

 

[charyuop]

Place a tanto under his armpit and tell him not to make it fall during the tecniques. It might create tension and make it move a little bit in an uneasy way, but it will make him see when and how he uses his arms and not his hips.
Once the tanto goes away he will probably go back to using his arms and shoulder...from there it will be enough to remind him to keep the elbows attached to the body.

For me it worked...

 

[seasoned]

Moving from the center is as much mental as it is physical. Start from there.

 

[theletch1]

Well, he certainly isn't a slacker. He understands that he needs to move from the hara and seems to understand where it is... he's simply finding it impossible to "make" it happen. I think that's part of his problem. He's trying to make it happen instead of just doing it. I'll try a few of the different drills that have been suggested here as well as the "bear hug walk" drill that we do in NGA. One of the few things I haven't tried yet is telling him to "lead with yer weener"! and see if that makes him get a little closer to moving properly.:boing2:

 

[K-man]

Moving from the center is as much mental as it is physical. Start from there.

So very true!

 

[seasoned]

So very true!

Thank you. I do feel that getting structure correct is important, that is easier to learn. Getting the mind to take it's rightful place in combat is the under lying focus of the question. The mind leads and the body follows, and meditation is the key.

 

[K-man]

Thank you. I do feel that getting structure correct is important, that is easier to learn. Getting the mind to take it's rightful place in combat is the under lying focus of the question. The mind leads and the body follows, and meditation is the key.

You and I know that but it is a difficult concept to master. :asian:

 

[theletch1]

You and I know that but it is a difficult concept to master. :asian:

And even more difficult to teach. I speak about visualizing the flow of energy from your center or flowing out of your fingertips often. For me the visualization is easy (now) but some folks simply aren't wired to "see" it like that.

 

[Yari]

.... I'll try a few of the different drills that have been suggested here as well as the "bear hug walk" drill that we do in NGA. One of the few things I haven't tried yet is telling him to "lead with yer weener"! and see if that makes him get a little closer to moving properly.:boing2:

Give us an update, on what works, and what results there were on the ones that didn't.

/Yari

 

[theletch1]

Give us an update, on what works, and what results there were on the ones that didn't.

/Yari

Will do.