Movement as a requirement

Gweilo

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Oh and this notion that there is some sort of compensational level up of guile or whatever as you get older to counter lack of physical ability. Seems a bit like people are trying to protect some egos.

No ego stroking, whilst I agree with your statement about physical abilities does give an advantage, what happens when your tank is empty, the strength has gone, your pretty much gassed out, most will just give up. we are not talking about an upper level in the sense your body starts to glow, or you are able to do phychic attack movie bollocks, I was referring to the experience gained by going beyond what your head is telling you is possible, by essentially removing a psychological barrier, a barrier that makes you work under a false cealing. Once you pass this threshold, things become clearer, other things are no big deal, you find a more efficeint way.
Now I know you like proof in the form of evidence, I havent documented my experiences, but the evidence of removing psychological barriers is in our history, I will give you 2 examples, 1 from the 1950's, and 1 from just last week, that you can check online yourself.
Early 1954, in the world of running, sports specialists and scientists of the day claimed, that it was psyisically impossible for the human being to be able to run a mile in sub 4 mins, many attempts were made, they all failed, until Roger Bannister on the 6th may 1954 acheived it, yes a remarkable man, but this is not my point, up until this point nobody had acheived this level, within a few months of this psychological false cealing being passed several more athletes run sub 4 mins.
Just last week, an 18 year old Swedish pole vaulter, attended an indoor global athletics event, a promising young man, who's progress had pretty much plateau'd, was entered into this event for experience, his coach gave him no expectations, apart from enjoy the occassion, and experience performing in front of a large crowd, his first vault he acheived a personal best, by the end of the day, he broke the world record, a record that had stood for some time, in the 2nd day of competition he broke the world record again.
When you remove psychological false cealings imposed by scientists, or others who know best, you will be surprised at what you can acheive, you will be surprised at how much rubbish is being imposed on people. This is why, its not only important that you learn why you do the things youre taught, but you take the time to feel what you are doing, how does it feel when your at the bottom of a clinch, where does this feeling come from, how it feels when you get it wrong or right, these are experiences you can draw on later in life, and when you remove these psychological false cealings anything is possible (except glowing hands and no touch bollocks).
 

Gerry Seymour

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When I began training in isshinryu, my cardio was horrible. I was very much lacking in cardio fitness, and I came home drenched in sweat and wrung out after every class.

Even as my cardio improved, as my general fitness increased, I still burned a lot of energy in every class.

After all this time, however, something has started to change. I don't come home soaking in sweat. I'm not worn out. I'm seldom bruised or beat up.

And my fitness has definitely declined. I've been putting on weight after years of slowly dropping it. I'll be 60 soon, and I've got medical conditions, so I'm not taking this lightly.

But what I've noticed apart from this is that I move less and accomplish more. I avoid punches, but only to the extent that I must. I don't block what isn't going to hit me anyway. I don't bounce, I plant my stances so that when i strike, it's effective. I use gravity. I use leverage. I am calm and relaxed.

This doesnt make me a fearsome fighter. Some of our students are much younger, blindingly fast, and strong. I can't outfight them, but I can beat them, sometimes, with stealth, guile, weight advantage, etc. I'll take the nerve shots to slow them down, dummy them up with elbows and knuckle strikes, then push them down and fall on them, whatever. Sometimes I just stay out of their range and wait for an opening if one ever comes. Of course, being able to take a punch on the way in helps.

Overall though, it seems odd that I do so much less physically in the dojo to actually get more done. I'm going to need to get back in the gym to get my weight down and cardio up now.

Anyone else notice this?
Late to the party on this one, I think, but I'll chime in. I see this happen in different ways, but it seems to almost always happen. In striking systems, what you describe happens a lot. In stand-up grappling, that efficiency happens, but the act of getting off the floor seems to help reduce the...reduction? But in those same stand-up grappling arts, as we age, we want to take fewer of the falls and more of the rolls and tend to push our training in that direction, which puts us back in the same boat. Ground grappling has some of the same issues, if the "rules" used in sparring/rolling allow you to play from guard, where you can be really energy efficient.

In all cases, we get more efficient and get less benefit from the training. Mixing it up some can help. Change the rules a couple of days a month so you're forced to either be more physical or are simply doing things you aren't as efficient at, so your body gets a better workout. Or you can add in another exercise outside class.
 

jobo

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No ego stroking, whilst I agree with your statement about physical abilities does give an advantage, what happens when your tank is empty, the strength has gone, your pretty much gassed out, most will just give up. we are not talking about an upper level in the sense your body starts to glow, or you are able to do phychic attack movie bollocks, I was referring to the experience gained by going beyond what your head is telling you is possible, by essentially removing a psychological barrier, a barrier that makes you work under a false cealing. Once you pass this threshold, things become clearer, other things are no big deal, you find a more efficeint way.
Now I know you like proof in the form of evidence, I havent documented my experiences, but the evidence of removing psychological barriers is in our history, I will give you 2 examples, 1 from the 1950's, and 1 from just last week, that you can check online yourself.
Early 1954, in the world of running, sports specialists and scientists of the day claimed, that it was psyisically impossible for the human being to be able to run a mile in sub 4 mins, many attempts were made, they all failed, until Roger Bannister on the 6th may 1954 acheived it, yes a remarkable man, but this is not my point, up until this point nobody had acheived this level, within a few months of this psychological false cealing being passed several more athletes run sub 4 mins.
Just last week, an 18 year old Swedish pole vaulter, attended an indoor global athletics event, a promising young man, who's progress had pretty much plateau'd, was entered into this event for experience, his coach gave him no expectations, apart from enjoy the occassion, and experience performing in front of a large crowd, his first vault he acheived a personal best, by the end of the day, he broke the world record, a record that had stood for some time, in the 2nd day of competition he broke the world record again.
When you remove psychological false cealings imposed by scientists, or others who know best, you will be surprised at what you can acheive, you will be surprised at how much rubbish is being imposed on people. This is why, its not only important that you learn why you do the things youre taught, but you take the time to feel what you are doing, how does it feel when your at the bottom of a clinch, where does this feeling come from, how it feels when you get it wrong or right, these are experiences you can draw on later in life, and when you remove these psychological false cealings anything is possible (except glowing hands and no touch bollocks).
i cant disagree with anything youve said, but cant really see the relivance in the current discusion, people who have trained to '' dig deep.'';; can dig deep, but thats not the vast majority of people, rather its a very small % the % of people who have done special forces training is even smaller.

yes if you get into a fight with an ex SAS guy or a sub 4 minete miler, you may be in a spot of bother, but how likely are they to attack you in a kebab shop?
 

Gweilo

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i cant disagree with anything youve said, but cant really see the relivance in the current discusion, people who have trained to '' dig deep.'';; can dig deep, but thats not the vast majority of people, rather its a very small % the % of people who have done special forces training is even smaller.

yes if you get into a fight with an ex SAS guy or a sub 4 minete miler, you may be in a spot of bother, but how likely are they to attack you in a kebab shop?

My post was in response to DB, in a conversation that is running along side this issue ( he likes to put in comments as a continuance from other posts), with regards to being fit and strong, is all you need, and about providing evidence for higher levels of performance. And using such skills as an older person drawing on these experiences.
 

jobo

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My post was in response to DB, in a conversation that is running along side this issue ( he likes to put in comments as a continuance from other posts), with regards to being fit and strong, is all you need, and about providing evidence for higher levels of performance.
i think this is one of those not infrequent cases where everyone is correct


fitness and strengh are vitally important, digging deep can offset some of that, but not over turn a significant disadvantage, once your on the floor getting battered digging deep may prelong the fight ie you get battered for longer, then get up have another go and get battered again

ive known people who were near impossible to beat as they would always get up and have another go. they did however sustain a lot of damage in the process, when they could have reasonably gone home after the first bout had ended, they often claim victory as their opoinent eventualy got bored and left. i see them now with the same broken noise and brain damage as they got when they were 20

the exsperiance beats youth and enthusiasm has some truth in it, but only to the point that your not completly out gunned by your younger opoinent or your aged appearance means they underestimate you and walk into a right hand

the advantage from the digging deep mentality co0me from your training in digging deep so that your not out gunned

once you feed your self the lie that you dont have to train harder than your youthful opoinent to have even a fair % of their fitness your on a slope to the bottom
 
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Tez3

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Why do you think the selection process for elite military units pushes individuals beyond their limits?
Not just their physical limits either.


It's mostly mental limits as they assume candidates have the physical ability already. It's the mental toughness that pushes people beyond what they think they can do. Funnily enough they also test to see if you are a person they can spend time in a ditch with for days with without wanting to kill you! So no irritating habits etc.


Unfortunately I am on four oral diabetes meds so I'm out of alternatives.

I'm a few months in on my first meds after being diagnosed. The first tablets I was given to take made me dreadfully sick, then I was put on the slow release version which is fine. Low dose at moment, hoping exercise and diet can help me stop taking them though my diet (and weight) as the medics said was fine! ( these days you tend to be blamed if you have diabetes) My diabetes is hereditary by all accounts, lucky me.
 

Balrog

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When I began training in isshinryu, my cardio was horrible. I was very much lacking in cardio fitness, and I came home drenched in sweat and wrung out after every class.

Even as my cardio improved, as my general fitness increased, I still burned a lot of energy in every class.

After all this time, however, something has started to change. I don't come home soaking in sweat. I'm not worn out. I'm seldom bruised or beat up.

And my fitness has definitely declined. I've been putting on weight after years of slowly dropping it. I'll be 60 soon, and I've got medical conditions, so I'm not taking this lightly.

But what I've noticed apart from this is that I move less and accomplish more. I avoid punches, but only to the extent that I must. I don't block what isn't going to hit me anyway. I don't bounce, I plant my stances so that when i strike, it's effective. I use gravity. I use leverage. I am calm and relaxed.

This doesnt make me a fearsome fighter. Some of our students are much younger, blindingly fast, and strong. I can't outfight them, but I can beat them, sometimes, with stealth, guile, weight advantage, etc. I'll take the nerve shots to slow them down, dummy them up with elbows and knuckle strikes, then push them down and fall on them, whatever. Sometimes I just stay out of their range and wait for an opening if one ever comes. Of course, being able to take a punch on the way in helps.

Overall though, it seems odd that I do so much less physically in the dojo to actually get more done. I'm going to need to get back in the gym to get my weight down and cardio up now.

Anyone else notice this?
Yep. Same thing happened to me. It's apparently the norm to put on weight as we get older. But I thought I was "exercising" during my workouts, but like you, I apparently learned how to move more efficiently. It wasn't until I threw Warrior X-Fit and going to the gym into the mix that things changed.

And I gotta start going to the gym more often now.
86695910_10158085496172171_3032996034876801024_n.jpg
 
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punisher73

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Yes, in ANY physical activity your body will get better and more efficient at it and expend less energy to do that activity. Think of all the unnecessary tension that a student starts with when they first start training. As you get better, you are less tense and spending less energy.
 

geezer

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Bill, somehow I missed this thread when it was fresh. Anyway, I have the same problem. Ten years ago I was keeping pretty fit with my training, but now, although getting technically more refined and efficient, I'm gaining back the weight I lost, and at 64, I'm not nearly as resilient as I was in my early 50s.

If it weren't for my teaching job ...with an ever increasing workload and a continuously declining payscale (considering increased withholdings and inflation) I'd probably have picked up a second martial art (or actually third, come to think of it). Something totally different, like maybe a BJJ class for old guys. Being new and bad at something really makes for a great workout! :p
 

shihansmurf

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Bill,

When I was young martial artist I remember my teachers saying thing like"I'm not faster than you, I move less", and I thought they were saying things to not make me feel bad about being slow and clumsy(as I felt at the time). Now, after a disturbing number of years at this, I get what they were on about. Efficiency is a great state to perform in. Fewer wasted motions is obviously better and yes, you stress your body less. If you're performing martial arts for the fitness aspect(and I realize that you are doing so for many other reasons at this point) then there is a definite break over point where the study of martial arts becomes less than optimal for fitness training.

I've been a proponent of weight lifting and general physical training for quite a long time now and I have yet to see a downside in my training to being fit and strong.If you attack that with the intensity, ability, and discipline that you have Isshin Ryu you'll get amazing results.

Best,
Mark
 

JP3

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Posting problems... it wasn't my Dad, but my first Tomiki instructor who said it this way, "Old age & treachery will always defeat youth and skill."

I've noticed the same urve as Bill wrote about in his O/P a couple of times, as I ascended through rank/skill progression in first TKD, then Judo then aikido. It takes far less effort now to do what I did before, because I'm actually Doing the Do, differently, more efficiently, with better timing/leverage/accuracy, whatever.

I agree with Jobo, too. The skill increase has caused my movement to decrease, thus causing a corresponding fitness decrease. Measurable.
 
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