Modern Arnis History and Development

[DoxN4cer]

**DISCLAIMER** The following thread is intended for constructive thought and exchange of ideas. If you take acception to something someone has to say here, take a deep breath, count to ten and exit the thread. Flames, feuds and hateful language (no matter how polite) are counter-productive, unnecessary and unappreciated. The thread starter does not claim to be an authority on anything. If he was he wouldn't be looking for information here, or anywhere else.


Now with that said...


The previous post on the connections between Modern Arnis and Balintawak had a lot of potential until the finger pointing started. Rocky, I look forward to you book, and hope to score a signed copy once it comes out. I'm interested in hearing more about the Crossada de Mano and Palis-Palis Silat styles you mentioned previously. I'm also interested in hearing more of your comparison of the varoious "groups/configurations" of Balintawak Eskrima.

Gumagalang,

Tim Kashino

 

[loki09789]

There have been some mention in the Gen2Arnis thread about RP's experience and martial arts. Here are some questions for my own interest:

How much training/when was this training in his other arts? Balitawak has been mentioned and explained. I am just curious about how and when these other arts influenced RP's development of MA.

Paul Martin

 

[DoxN4cer]

That's kind of what I was asking Rocky for... information on the family systems that the Professor was taught in his youth. He made reference to them in previous posts, and caught my interest.

Anybody else with something constructive to lend can feel free to chime in. It would be cool to here about the Professor's training in other systems as well (Shotokan, Judo, etc). The thread wasn't started just for Rocky to reply.

Tim Kashino

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I believe I heard that the Professor had blackbelts in Karate and Judo, but I'm not aware of which systems, or what ranks.

 

[Cruentus]

For more information on Professors Balintawak History, I would suggest subscribing to MartialTalk Magaizine, and See about getting some back issues.

I did a 4 part series of articles where I interviewed Manong Ted on Remy Presas' involvement and training in Balintawak, and how it relates to Modern Arnis. I think you guys might find it pretty interesting.

btw a subscription is only $12 per year for an issue every month, and well worth it.

As for the rest of the history, I am curious to learn more too.

I am particularly interested in learning where Remy's 6 count drill, crossada style, and Palis Palis came from. I was told that Remy's 6 count was originally a espada y daga drill from his grandfather, although I could be mistaken in what I was told.

So I would be very excited to here some more input myself!

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Yes, he was ranked in both Shotokan Karate and Judo. I remember him having us do hip throws one year at the MI camp--I ended up teaching a lot of it to the newcomers, out on the grass, because I had had some Judo before.

 

[dearnis.com]

It is my understanding, and this could easily be wrong, that the 4 baston anyos were his grandfather's practice sets (note that the baston anyos appear in the early books (pre-US) where the empty hand forms do not (more on that later- maybe).
It is also my understanding that the palis-palis movements come from his granfather.
Professor held dan ranks in Judo and Shotokan. There are persistant rumors that he studied Sambo, but I have never heard this confirmed. (It also seems unlikely given Sambo's late- post Soviet- emergence on the international MA scene).

Chad

 

[DoxN4cer]

I'm fairly sure that the Professor's Shotokan training came from Dr. Guillermo Lengson, but I think his high ranking dan may have been honorary and came about from being a "good will embassador" to Japan.

Tim Kashino

 

[Dan Anderson]

I'm actually quite interested in the pre-American history of Modern Arnis myself. I believe Bram Frank has info on his training with his uncle and possibly his grandfather as well. From what I've read in Mark Wiley's books, I believe he got the sinawali from Guillermo Lengson. Roland Dantes would be an excellent source to tap as well. I'd gotten an email from verifying Rosemary Presas' involvement in the formation of Modern Arnis in the Philippines.

This next could be a horrible misquote or misduplication on my part (so if I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it) but according to Remy Presas Jr., Rosemary was the one responsible for the actual name "Modern Arnis."

Anybody have actual info on this and the sinawali origins?

Rock, any word on this?

Yours,
Dn Anderson

 

[dearnis.com]

Dan-
As to the origin of the name I heard that as well; I believe from Tim (but I am not 100% on that ). His first book (the "white" book uses the term eskrima)

and speaking of Bram when is his book due out (weren't you an advance reader for it?)

 

[arnisador]

I too have heard that the use of arnis vice eskrima was influenced by his first wife, and that his Shotokan ranking may have been artificially high due to "cross-ranking" (but that he was a legitimate yudansha in Shotokan).

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Dan-
and speaking of Bram when is his book due out (weren't you an advance reader for it?)

When it's out I don't know. He is just now in the process of putting the photos to the text. He has a computer literate student doing it as we speak. I'll drop him a line and see if he has any sort of deadline date yet. I've read the text of it and it IS comprehensive.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
I'm actually quite interested in the pre-American history of Modern Arnis myself. I believe Bram Frank has info on his training with his uncle and possibly his grandfather as well. From what I've read in Mark Wiley's books, I believe he got the sinawali from Guillermo Lengson...

The late Dr. Lengson was a big gun in the KaraPhil organization and was into karate as well as arnis. There is a good deal of information on this in Wiley's book as well as in Sulite's book.

Tim Kashino

 

[Rocky]

We all know Remy had lots of training with various people , he did lots of boxing and wrestling under my father actually from about 1982 to around 90. His bolo syle punchiing came from my father, who loved to wrestle and play Judo with Remy. His Crossada De mano cme from a guy named (awit for the book) anyways it was actually a friend of his Grandfather, a very small framed individual who like the jamming techniques of crossada. Palis PAlis I am sorry to say I don't know his liniag on this. I do know the first 5 entries and most of the espada y daga, I beleave Palis Palis may have been his Grand fathers primary art. Palis Palis is a very Silat style art as is Crossada De mano. Remy did not train in tons of arts like Guru Inosanto. Remember his fightin ability comes mostly from fighting!! Wow fancy that!! His shotokan came from Manilla where he swapped training with an instructor there.


Rocky

 

[DoxN4cer]

thanks for the info, Rock. Got any plans to do a book on Modern Arnis like Super Dan?

Tim Kashino

 

[loki09789]

Is there anyone out there comfortable enough with their RP knowledge to outline a martial arts chronology? All of this stuff is getting hard to follow for those who don't know a heck of alot about his training.

Paul Martin

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
thanks for the info, Rock. Got any plans to do a book on Modern Arnis like Super Dan?

Tim Kashino

He's going to have to hurry if he's gong to catch up with me.

Yours,
Book Writin' Dan

 

[Dan Anderson]

Previous post - "going" not gong. Oops.

Check this out http://www.geocities.com/kalipages/tested.html

Has a little about RP and his uncle, Berong, in it.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by loki09789
Is there anyone out there comfortable enough with their RP knowledge to outline a martial arts chronology? All of this stuff is getting hard to follow for those who don't know a heck of alot about his training.

Paul Martin

I'll start and then everyone can correct me:

1. Training with Grandfather as a kid (reference: Kelly Worden taped interview). Possibly training with his uncle Berong in the bolo as well. (I'm uncertain if he trained with Berong here or when he came back home for a while after training wiht Bacon)

2. Age 14 ran away from home, linked up with Moncal, Maranga and Bacon (in that order)

3. Left balintawak as one of the top fighters as his life was in peril. Went back home for a short while. Found out he was better than everyone at home so he left again (personal conversation with RP in Philadelphia in 1996?)

4. Traveled about the Philippines checking out top fighters in various villages and such. Fighting with them and stealing their techniques.

5. Got himself set up in the school systems and got Modern Arnis set up as well. Somewhere around here he met up with Dr. Lengson and learned sinawali. Dates/names/places uncertain as to where he learned his karate and judo from.

6. Left the Philippines in 1974 as the heat was on again. Came to the US (reference: personal conversation and Rick Mitchell article in Inside Kung Fu).

That's what I know. It's up to the rest of you to fill in the blanks.
Tim & Rocky - I think he probably had a lot more personal conversations with you guys as to his history.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Rocky]

Berong Presas's bolo was that of a jungle type bolo, a little lighter and not as heavy as a traditional bolo, and I beleave a tad bit shorter, designed to be quick and fast. He used this to his real life advantage during WWII when engageing the Japanese in the Jungle the Japanese soldiers would qiute often have trouble swining an awkwardly long sword in combat. From what I gathered from Remy most of Burong's, Bolo stratagie came from Palis Palis, he concentrated on a lot of upward slashing, simular to some of what you might see in some of the Silat styles. He also taught a lot of body shifting actually simular to Balintawak, becuase there is very little room for fancy foot work in the Jungle, so the corner taking mathods of Palis Palis make more scense. If you look at real Palis Palis the way Professor really did it it is far different from the grossly overly performed techniques that so many teach today. Palis Palis is very close quarters, which is why it is so hard to teach, some of its applications verge on the sucidual, it works or you lose no in between.

Remy's real experience I believe came from his gift of gab. he told me on several occasions how he would stroke different Eskrimadors egos, to pump them for technique. He also on a few occasions would tell other students that their would be no class today so he got more attention!! Sounds like some of the Bruce Lee stories, but I believe Remy would do things like that, you spend enough time with someone and you can tell certain things about him. One thing about Remy he always wanted to know more.


Rocky