MMA and The Street

[MJS]

Looking over some recent threads in this area, I've read alot about pressure testing, contact levels in various arts, the pros and cons of various arts, and the list goes on and on.

I'll start out by saying that this thread is not intended to be a slam on MMA, MMA fighters or anyone on this board that is involved in MMA. I'm a big fan of the UFC/MMA/NHB fights. My video/dvd collection can vouch for that!

So, my question is this: What are everyones thoughts on how someone would do in a fight or SD situation outside of the octagon? I realize that many of the fighters come from a prior MA background, such as Chuck Liddell, who has a Kempo background, but I'd think that considering the majority of their fighting is done in the ring, that is what their training is going to be geared towards.

If faced with mult. attackers, weapons, pavement, and anything else that may be found outside of the ring, how do you feel that these people would do?

Mike

 

[Cryozombie]

My main concern, if I were training MMA, would be training situational awareness. I recall a story about Tito Ortiz getting his butt handed to him at a party because he was using his training on some shlub at a party who started some crap, and another dude came up and clubbed him with a bottle.

So, I would think that for an MMA fighter to be good outside the ring, he/she would need to move beyond the 1 on 1 mentality, and maintain an awareness that the ring rules dont apply... watch for weapons, friends, etc... if they do that, I think they would prolly do ok. And I am sure some of them train that way... and thats all the better for them.

 

[kickcatcher]

Competiative MMA fighters tend not to be the sort of people who would be obvious victims to the typical SD situations most of us MAists train for. They are at the end of the day extremely fit and extremely profficient at punching/kicking/grappling.

From an SD perspective MMA training is not complete - local exceptions accepted, it does not cover the avoidance, conflict management etc angles. But it is also fair to say (IMO) that the standards of learning and profficiency within the MMA community tend to be far higher than in mainstream martial arts for obvious reasons. And the training is very high intensity and contact so in that regard it conditions the person very well for the 'real' thing.

So all in all I'd feel that the training bandwidth is not as wide as would be optimum for SD but that the profficienies are generally extremely high and the ability to strike and grapple gives an obvious attribute advantage over most other martial arts. IMO.

The common expectation that groundfighting ability somehow puts them at a disadvantage beggars believe, as does the misconception that MMA=deliberately seeking groundfighting.

 

[Andrew Green]

Most MMA fighters avoid takedowns unless they are loosing nowadays...

Anyways, it all depends on how you train. There is nothing about MMA like training that prevents you from training weapons or 2 on 1.

But, compared to someone that did 1 on 1 point fighting, or even full contact I'd say they'd have a better chance. The more tools you have the better obviously, and a MMA fighter starts with a lot already, plus a good level of conditioning and ability to take a beating and keep coming.

Anyways, I wouldn't want to fight a guy like Tito. Throw some weapons in and take away the ref, I'd want to fight him even less :s

 

[MJS]

Some good points being made! I agree that the MMA fighters conditioning is IMO much better than we'd see the average Martial Artist. It would need work in dealing with mult attackers and weapons, but 1 on 1 I"d say they'd do pretty good. While they do take their training to a level that many wouldn't dream of, I wouldn't say that they would fit in the category of a complete MAist.

 

[swiftpete]

To be fair I think if you had someone like Tank Abbot and two attackers trying to chin him at the same time, it wouldn't surprise me if he just KO'd them both! To people that are used to getting hit so hard by other people that train to hit as hard as they can and just carrying on, then the average street chump would have to get a great or lucky hit in to take them down. More likely it would be just ignored while they dish out a professional beating.
MMA fighters that are at the top of their game basically get hit and grapple with some pretty solid mothers regularly, so i don't think they'd do too badly in a street brawl. Well i know i personally wouldn't ask chuck liddell if he was looking at my pint and ask him outside for a carpark scuffle.

 

[kickcatcher]

We are right to point out the lack of weapons/awareness etc training in typical MMA. But we have to ask ourselves whether mainstream MA is typically any better. Most of the weapons defences I've seen in MA clubs were (IMO) worth diddly squat for real anyway. What (methods) you train is important, so is how you train it - MMA is excellent for the second bit IMO.

 

[shesulsa]

What (methods) you train is important, so is how you train it - MMA is excellent for the second bit IMO.

And here we get right back to the instructor, now don't we?

 

[Sarah]

Not every technique and every exercise that is done in Martial Arts has to relate to a 'real life situation', there is more to learn then street fighting, if I just wanted to learn 'self defense' I would go to a SD course I wouldn’t be training in Martial Arts.

Learning to be able to defend yourself through MA is just an added benefit that comes after YEARS of training your body to react in certain ways. And you may find that experienced MA'ist don’t often find them selves in a position where they need to use there MA because of other attributes that have developed over the years...like improved situational awareness. Of course this applies to MMA also

 

[kickcatcher]

And here we get right back to the instructor, now don't we?

? MMA has a training culture which is pretty common throughout the MMA community. You don't get many MMA guys going into the ring/cage whatever without putting lots of time and effort into thngs like sparring/rolling, fitness training etc - same with boxing etc - boxers all tend to train in pretty much the same way.

 

[shesulsa]

? MMA has a training culture which is pretty common throughout the MMA community. You don't get many MMA guys going into the ring/cage whatever without putting lots of time and effort into thngs like sparring/rolling, fitness training etc - same with boxing etc - boxers all tend to train in pretty much the same way.

One track mind, eh? I'm talking about other instructors outside your frame of reference, capice?

 

[kickcatcher]

No I don't caprice. What instructors?

 

[shesulsa]

No I don't caprice. What instructors?

Some instructors who teach martial arts and have been around for a while will teach the self-defense application of arts and work very hard to stay aware of attack reality and train their students for such and this training just might include knowledge outside of a standard art curriculum.

Other instructors teach art and art-specific activity under controlled circumstances only.

See the two are different?

 

[Adept]

Getting back to the topic; it depends.

As others have said, a competitive MMA figher is very well conditioned with a whole bunch of full contact experience under his belt. In short, he's a pretty tough bloke, which stands him in good stead.

However, anyone can be taken out by a barstool bushwack, and being a MMA fighter doesn't grant immunity to it. I don't think any aspect of a MMA fighters training actively disadvantages him. Some aspects may ignore things a dedicated SD trainer might focus on, but the MMA fighter won't be any worse off than Joe Regular on the street, and should be enjoying a significant advantage.

 

[Cryozombie]

I don't think any aspect of a MMA fighters training actively disadvantages him. Some aspects may ignore things a dedicated SD trainer might focus on, but the MMA fighter won't be any worse off than Joe Regular on the street, and should be enjoying a significant advantage.

I totaly agree with this. And if the MMA guy is savvy, and doesnt ignore aspects of fighting that dont apply in the ring, I think that he or she would be a tough cookie on the street.

 

[Hand Sword]

I've worked with some and I would say, seeing them in action, they do fine. As it was said, they have the physical conditioning over average martial artists. They also have a better mind set for the ability to deal with an encounter. They have learned to control the stress, or fear, of getting into a fight. After all, that is their profession. Also, people who do this are usually aggressive personalities. Another characteristic that helps with self defense situations. They already have a self confidence, and are usually "macho" personalities, even the ladies.

As for multiple attackers, both MMA people, and martialartists have a hard time with this. As Mr. Miyagi put it "5 to 1 problem, too much to ask anyone!"

 

[Cryozombie]

Also, people who do this are usually aggressive personalities. Another characteristic that helps with self defense situations. They already have a self confidence, and are usually "macho" personalities, even the ladies.

Don't you think, tho, that this can also be detrimental?

Maybe it's just me, but Being Big, tough, macho, and agressive in a confrontation seems like a good way to ensure that the guy shoots you instead of just brawling with you, no?

 

[RoninPimp]

I don't think any aspect of a MMA fighters training actively disadvantages him. Some aspects may ignore things a dedicated SD trainer might focus on, but the MMA fighter won't be any worse off than Joe Regular on the street, and should be enjoying a significant advantage.

-I also agree with this. Common sense SD strategy and regular MMA training makes a solid empty hands toolbox.

Saying accross the board that MMA guys are an agressive macho bunch is nonsense. MMA people are as diverse as any other group. The guys at the top of the sport are generally know as real laid back easy going guys.

 

[Hand Sword]

Yes, it can be detrimental. Any self defense situation can be detrimental, for anybody. One never knows how it's going to go down, whether weapons will be involved or not. For most people (even martial artists) a real self defense situation is terrifying. At least the personalities and profession of MMA people lends itself to dealing and accepting it better. Anyway we were talking about a street encounter. If so, it IS going to go down, your attacker(s) has or have already dtermined that! They also have already picked where and how it's going to go down!

As for an across the board opinion being nonsense, It's true, they all have different personalities, but they are naturally more aggressive than average martial artists. It's not passive personalities that can do that stuff for a living! The guys at the top are laid back because they are at the top! After many years of being very succesful at it, and being the creme of the crop, they have that confidence. They have nothing to prove, and know it! However, if you watch them as coaches or fans, they get just as intense about the sport. You also see it just before their own fights, at the conferences. When it comes down to throwdown, I would rather a seasoned MMA guy, than an average martial artist (who hasn't had a fight since grade school, probably!) with me, anyday!