Mitose
- Thread starter Seig
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G
GouRonin
Guest
One of his students commited murder. Mitose was connected with organizing the murder as a result of his actions. I'll look for a story as I have heard several version why but only one result.
G
GouRonin
Guest
This is as good as any article. It has it's own slant of course as it was written from his son's perspective but hey, what can ya do?
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/nov92/jmitose/jmitose.html
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/nov92/jmitose/jmitose.html
T
tonbo
Guest
There is also some good history and information on the Tracy website. A lot of lineage there, as well as a pretty fair recounting as to what happened.
From what I understand, Gou is right on......one of Mitose's students committed a murder or was otherwise responsible for someone's death, and Mitose, according to *this* version of the story, anyway, offered to take the fall or took the fall because he didn't fully understand the proceedings. Also kind of sounds like he was screwed over in court, but again, that is the slant of the article, not necessarily an objective point of view.
I also understand from reading things that SGM Parker said, that Mr. Mitose was also not always on the level in business dealings, but I don't think that he went to prison for anything along those lines......I think the reason the person the student killed died was over a fight about money.
Unfortunately, I don't remember exactly. This is one of those things where I shake my head and say, "Well, that's the fault of the person, not the style..."....hehe....
Peace--
From what I understand, Gou is right on......one of Mitose's students committed a murder or was otherwise responsible for someone's death, and Mitose, according to *this* version of the story, anyway, offered to take the fall or took the fall because he didn't fully understand the proceedings. Also kind of sounds like he was screwed over in court, but again, that is the slant of the article, not necessarily an objective point of view.
I also understand from reading things that SGM Parker said, that Mr. Mitose was also not always on the level in business dealings, but I don't think that he went to prison for anything along those lines......I think the reason the person the student killed died was over a fight about money.
Unfortunately, I don't remember exactly. This is one of those things where I shake my head and say, "Well, that's the fault of the person, not the style..."....hehe....
Peace--
K
Kirk
Guest
In addition to claims of him being not on the level, some have
also said he's a rapist. This is a seriously one sided article.
Go and ask all the kenpoists on Mr Parker's tree who was to
run things after his passing. There'll be a boat load of majorly
different stories, all worded so eloquently, and all filled with
"facts". Just because a deal was made, does NOT mean that
Mitose didn't order an *** whoopin' or murder of this guy.
He wasn't the only one that was required to pay back loans.
There's web pages out there claiming that the god Rah ordered
the Sept. 11th attacks ... does this make it true?!?!?
also said he's a rapist. This is a seriously one sided article.
Go and ask all the kenpoists on Mr Parker's tree who was to
run things after his passing. There'll be a boat load of majorly
different stories, all worded so eloquently, and all filled with
"facts". Just because a deal was made, does NOT mean that
Mitose didn't order an *** whoopin' or murder of this guy.
He wasn't the only one that was required to pay back loans.
There's web pages out there claiming that the god Rah ordered
the Sept. 11th attacks ... does this make it true?!?!?
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Maybe we can sit around and ask if it is true or not, but enough of his peers thought there was enough evidence to convict him of enough nefarious deeds that he served hard time for it.
Did that make him a non-viable representative of Kenpo? Absolutely! SGM Parker once talked about the skills of Kenpo... he indicated that there is a lot more than just the fighting side of it all. His words, and I'm paraphrasing, were to the effect that a large gorilla can kill. That is not where the skill is.
It takes the fighting skill, along with the ethical/moral capabilities of the individual to make a Kenpoist/martial artist, or a "good" human being for that matter.
You, as a Martial Artist, in my opinion, become a superior human being. You have to ability to fatally deal with most any "non-practicing" human being. You become more aware of what and who you are. You, therefore, owe it to humanity to be a little better than average. A lot more forgiving, a lot more ethical, a lot more willing to step in and right the wrongs you confront as you go through life, and a lot more willing to make life better for your fellow human beings.
If you want to go and just be a killer, go compete with the rogue gorillas. That requires brute strength, not special skills.
Just food for thought... You gotsta show better to be better.
Dan
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
but he had a long rap sheet prior the the California Murder Case. He was no stranger to trouble and fraud.
:asian:
:asian:
Dave Simmons
Green Belt
Geez Dan,
I like gorilla's they are peaceful because they do not fear things they just want to be left alone!
Is the Kenpaloosa Dead? As far as I know I am the only one that followed through... No offense!!!
Peace,
Dave Simmons
I like gorilla's they are peaceful because they do not fear things they just want to be left alone!
Is the Kenpaloosa Dead? As far as I know I am the only one that followed through... No offense!!!
Peace,
Dave Simmons
First I have not ead the article or the trail manuscripts.
I have these thoughts on the subject :
1. The trail took place in so. calif. shortly after Manson had his people go on a rampage.
2. Anyone not middle class white being accused of extorsion and murder for hire and accused of leading a cult was in for a difficult time at trail
3. People not speaking English at trail in southern calif have adiffucult time explaining what they mean
4. the man who admitted doing the crime got off with a slap on the wrist because he claimed to be "under the influence"
5. Mitose in the old world fasion took blame for what his student did (this is what instructors did because they did feel responseible for the actions of their students)
As I said I have not rad the trail manuscript
Shadow:asian:
I have these thoughts on the subject :
1. The trail took place in so. calif. shortly after Manson had his people go on a rampage.
2. Anyone not middle class white being accused of extorsion and murder for hire and accused of leading a cult was in for a difficult time at trail
3. People not speaking English at trail in southern calif have adiffucult time explaining what they mean
4. the man who admitted doing the crime got off with a slap on the wrist because he claimed to be "under the influence"
5. Mitose in the old world fasion took blame for what his student did (this is what instructors did because they did feel responseible for the actions of their students)
As I said I have not rad the trail manuscript
Shadow:asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Nor have I, but from what I have heard from people who were involved, Mitose was not nearly as innocent as others would have you believe. Being a Tracy Kenpoist, I have spoken to Al on the issue a couple of times. It really doesn't matter to me whether we trace our heritage back to Mitose or not. If he had not wished to be associated with bad guys, he should have not hung with bad guys, or acted in a manner that caused his behavior and actions to be called into question. That actually is pretty simple.
Dan
:asian:
T
tonbo
Guest
There is a huge ethical problem involved when you have a Pope that is guilty of bad deeds, and there have been a few in the past.
Suddenly, people had to wonder if papal blessings were any good anymore, and people wondered if services that the guilty Pope had done were invalid.
The answer? Papal Infallibility. The *person* was bad, and was guilty of sin, but the *church deeds* (i.e., the services, blessings, and so on, not any "evil" acts) were still considered to be valid and pure.
(Please, at this point, we don't need to go into discussions of the recent Catholic Church problems......that is not the purpose of my bringing this up)
I think we have something similar here. Mitose himself was, maybe, a less than stellar person, and may have been quite the shyster. However, the art that was passed down *through* him is *not* him, and can still be fine.
Go back far enough through *any* art, and I will bet you can find shady characters. But bad people are everywhere, and they can't truly tarnish the art.
You can't erase Mitose from the lineage, if you are tracing Kenpo history. However, his deeds don't damn the style for all time. They make *him* look pretty bad, but oh well. Those that took the art from there aren't in the same league. They are well beyond.
Peace--
Suddenly, people had to wonder if papal blessings were any good anymore, and people wondered if services that the guilty Pope had done were invalid.
The answer? Papal Infallibility. The *person* was bad, and was guilty of sin, but the *church deeds* (i.e., the services, blessings, and so on, not any "evil" acts) were still considered to be valid and pure.
(Please, at this point, we don't need to go into discussions of the recent Catholic Church problems......that is not the purpose of my bringing this up)
I think we have something similar here. Mitose himself was, maybe, a less than stellar person, and may have been quite the shyster. However, the art that was passed down *through* him is *not* him, and can still be fine.
Go back far enough through *any* art, and I will bet you can find shady characters. But bad people are everywhere, and they can't truly tarnish the art.
You can't erase Mitose from the lineage, if you are tracing Kenpo history. However, his deeds don't damn the style for all time. They make *him* look pretty bad, but oh well. Those that took the art from there aren't in the same league. They are well beyond.
Peace--
T
tonbo
Guest
Here is a link to one of the last interviews that Mr. Parker gave, in which he discusses James Mitose. Get some information straight from him, as to what he thought:
http://www.mawn.net/feat3.htm
Peace--
http://www.mawn.net/feat3.htm
Peace--
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Hi Tonbo!
I don't think anyone is questioning Kenpo as an art. I believe, and I am committing heresy according to some Tracy Karate folks, and probably Al Tracy, himself, that my particular problems with Mitose are as follows:
a. Why would we attempt to canonize a man who has a record the length and breadth of Mitose. He was, regardless of anything else, a conman, thief, rapist, and probable murderer or at least an accessory to most all of that. Parker states in the interview that his record went back to 1935. That was a pretty long one, especially for a man who wore a "collar" all the time, and attempted to foist himself on the public as a man of higher quality, caliber, and morality. That is totally independent of his art.
b. I am not really sure of his impact on Kenpo. Brouhaha about Parker learning from Mitose totally aside, who else did he teach that still carries on his system? Juchnick, et al. took Master Certificates that, according to what I have been able to find out, were more in the area of philosophical attainment and not in the various aspects of what his Kenpo was supposed to be. It is pretty much generally felt that he was not, while incarcerated, able to teach physical technique.
It is much like the point that was made that SL-4 is really a part of Mitose's stuff... Not in any technique pictorials that I have seen versus the manuals and videos that I have of Doctor Chapél's
SL-4. The movements of SL-4 are nothing like Tracy's Karate, and in many senses of the word, not the same as Ed Parker's American Kenpo. There is very little in his book, What is Self Defense? Kenpo ... that really appears to have much in the way of application in what is done now in Ed Parker American Kenpo. There are some similarities to Tracy's, but I'm not sure if that is after the fact, or not.
My point of this post is not to get a flaming match or anything like that going. I would like some honest answers and the chance to discuss and rebutt. I am not looking for moral or ethical defenses of the man and the truth of his life.
I am not Catholic, but I do find it somewhat repugnant to compare a man like that to a Pope. The Pope is a man (and perhaps at least one woman) who is followed in a Religious sense by millions of people, who place their faith in what s/he does based on Biblical sayings and concepts, and a belief in God, Jesus, and Mary. Mitose, on the other hand, was an evil, self-centered, crook with little thought of anyone else other than how they could further his own aims and goals. No ethics, no morals, no God... Just a crooked little man trying to walk a crooked little mile ... who happened to do a style of Karate that has origins shrouded in mystery and lack of substantiation.
Least ways, that's my take on it ....
I could be wrong as these are just opinions. Flame suit is on...
Take care,
Dan Farmer
I don't think anyone is questioning Kenpo as an art. I believe, and I am committing heresy according to some Tracy Karate folks, and probably Al Tracy, himself, that my particular problems with Mitose are as follows:
a. Why would we attempt to canonize a man who has a record the length and breadth of Mitose. He was, regardless of anything else, a conman, thief, rapist, and probable murderer or at least an accessory to most all of that. Parker states in the interview that his record went back to 1935. That was a pretty long one, especially for a man who wore a "collar" all the time, and attempted to foist himself on the public as a man of higher quality, caliber, and morality. That is totally independent of his art.
b. I am not really sure of his impact on Kenpo. Brouhaha about Parker learning from Mitose totally aside, who else did he teach that still carries on his system? Juchnick, et al. took Master Certificates that, according to what I have been able to find out, were more in the area of philosophical attainment and not in the various aspects of what his Kenpo was supposed to be. It is pretty much generally felt that he was not, while incarcerated, able to teach physical technique.
It is much like the point that was made that SL-4 is really a part of Mitose's stuff... Not in any technique pictorials that I have seen versus the manuals and videos that I have of Doctor Chapél's
SL-4. The movements of SL-4 are nothing like Tracy's Karate, and in many senses of the word, not the same as Ed Parker's American Kenpo. There is very little in his book, What is Self Defense? Kenpo ... that really appears to have much in the way of application in what is done now in Ed Parker American Kenpo. There are some similarities to Tracy's, but I'm not sure if that is after the fact, or not.
My point of this post is not to get a flaming match or anything like that going. I would like some honest answers and the chance to discuss and rebutt. I am not looking for moral or ethical defenses of the man and the truth of his life.
I am not Catholic, but I do find it somewhat repugnant to compare a man like that to a Pope. The Pope is a man (and perhaps at least one woman) who is followed in a Religious sense by millions of people, who place their faith in what s/he does based on Biblical sayings and concepts, and a belief in God, Jesus, and Mary. Mitose, on the other hand, was an evil, self-centered, crook with little thought of anyone else other than how they could further his own aims and goals. No ethics, no morals, no God... Just a crooked little man trying to walk a crooked little mile ... who happened to do a style of Karate that has origins shrouded in mystery and lack of substantiation.
Least ways, that's my take on it ....
I could be wrong as these are just opinions. Flame suit is on...
Take care,
Dan Farmer
Dave Simmons
Green Belt
No offense folks but this whole issue of Mitose is a vague gray area to all who do not know the truth. No, I do not know the "truth" but Mitose is part of Kenpo's history and that's the truth. It doesn't really matter what is said now about him.
If you like Kenpo in all its forms and practice what else is there? Except the pleasure of sharing the experience.
Regards,
Dave Simmons
If you like Kenpo in all its forms and practice what else is there? Except the pleasure of sharing the experience.
Regards,
Dave Simmons
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Mitose has "no" "American Kenpo" History what so ever! The History starts with Ed Parker. This goes for anyone who was ranked under Ed Parker....... unless/till they broke away and studied directly with Mitose or another system..... then they would be a blend of what ever "Katas" or "Hyung" or whatever (we in American Kenpo do Forms and Sets that Ed Parker created not Mitose or Chow) end of story!
Period.
:asian:
Period.
:asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Originally posted by Dave Simmons
No offense folks but this whole issue of Mitose is a vague gray area to all who do not know the truth. No, I do not know the "truth" but Mitose is part of Kenpo's history and that's the truth. It doesn't really matter what is said now about him.
If you like Kenpo in all its forms and practice what else is there? Except the pleasure of sharing the experience.
Regards,
Dave Simmons
Hello Brother Dave,
That which you posted, is in essence, the point of my posting. We all sit around and conjecture this, that or the other. Al Tracy is supposed to have much material on this whole history of Kenpo, and it isn't posted or shared ... Yet we do nothing but sit around and conjecture (me included). Those are simply points that I bring up to ponder.
Even if the man were a war hero, etc. etc. Anything other than what I have perceived him to be (a rat, loser, evil little man, etc) there is no real prima fascia evidence of it. Here it is almost 50 years after the end of WWII and there is nothing prevalent in the way of evidence that he should have been anything other than my vague perceptions, and he certainly should have no real impact on Kenpo other than, perhaps, as a footnote.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.
Dan
T
tonbo
Guest
Hey, no offense taken, none offered. Let me start out with that.
My intent in using the Pope as an example was only one of the idea of the "lineage" being clean, or the history being clean, even if some of the practitioners were not. I am also not Catholic, but I do respect the Pope as both a person and an office, and did not mean to imply in any way that he could in any way be compared with a crook or a criminal. Maybe it was the wrong example, but I was *trying*. Ah, well. But anyway, no offense meant to *anyone's* sensibilities.
I also agree with you on the points that Mitose was a *very* flawed individual, and should be seen as such.
AFAIK, Mitose has NO impact on American Kenpo, other than his name is brought in as part of the lineage. As GoldenDragon stated, however, American Kenpo started with Ed Parker. Ed Parker, even according to his own words, NEVER studied with Mitose. Saw him, yes. Met with him, yes. Trained under him, NO. Mr. Parker even states serious disagreements with Mitose's style of martial arts. In terms of American Kenpo, Mitose is little more than a side note.
When it comes to Juchnik and those claiming to have lineage from Mitose, my question is.....WHY? Why would you want to claim knowledge gained from someone in prison for murder, and whose past transgressions include rape? Don't those principles violate just about everything that MA is supposed to stand for? I think so.
Finally, I can only speculate on so much of this history, and so I won't. I have read quite a bit, from various sources, and tend to shrug it all off. Okay, Mitose was a bad guy. So were quite a few others along the path. However, like I said earlier......what I learn is clean, and will continue to be. It is not tainted by the people involved, but rather enhanced by those on the "good" side of it.
Once again, my apologies at any offences taken in my analogies. None was meant. I'll be obvious if I intend to slight, and it'll take a lot to get to that point, too.
:asian:
Peace--
My intent in using the Pope as an example was only one of the idea of the "lineage" being clean, or the history being clean, even if some of the practitioners were not. I am also not Catholic, but I do respect the Pope as both a person and an office, and did not mean to imply in any way that he could in any way be compared with a crook or a criminal. Maybe it was the wrong example, but I was *trying*. Ah, well. But anyway, no offense meant to *anyone's* sensibilities.
I also agree with you on the points that Mitose was a *very* flawed individual, and should be seen as such.
AFAIK, Mitose has NO impact on American Kenpo, other than his name is brought in as part of the lineage. As GoldenDragon stated, however, American Kenpo started with Ed Parker. Ed Parker, even according to his own words, NEVER studied with Mitose. Saw him, yes. Met with him, yes. Trained under him, NO. Mr. Parker even states serious disagreements with Mitose's style of martial arts. In terms of American Kenpo, Mitose is little more than a side note.
When it comes to Juchnik and those claiming to have lineage from Mitose, my question is.....WHY? Why would you want to claim knowledge gained from someone in prison for murder, and whose past transgressions include rape? Don't those principles violate just about everything that MA is supposed to stand for? I think so.
Finally, I can only speculate on so much of this history, and so I won't. I have read quite a bit, from various sources, and tend to shrug it all off. Okay, Mitose was a bad guy. So were quite a few others along the path. However, like I said earlier......what I learn is clean, and will continue to be. It is not tainted by the people involved, but rather enhanced by those on the "good" side of it.
Once again, my apologies at any offences taken in my analogies. None was meant. I'll be obvious if I intend to slight, and it'll take a lot to get to that point, too.
:asian:
Peace--
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
Just a little extra info...
Mitose's student in question's name was Terry Lee. He now goes by the name of Namr Hassan.
His website is at...
http://astro.temple.edu/~gavinc/
Take care.
Mitose's student in question's name was Terry Lee. He now goes by the name of Namr Hassan.
His website is at...
http://astro.temple.edu/~gavinc/
Take care.
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