Military suicide rate hit record high in 2012

[James Kovacich]

Anyone who has ever used the words, "I support the troops, but..." deserves to be butt stroked.

I didn't use those words.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ballen0351]

As cuts in military personnel ramp up I can see Vet suicides going up. The military is making good people get out not allowing people to reenlist. If your not ready and don't have a plan or a job ready combined with a feeling the mkitary turned its back on you I can see people giving up.

 

[crushing]

When I think of soldiers and PTSD, I usually think of soldiers that were in the thick of it, getting shot at or in constant vigilance for IEDs. In light of the US drone attacks that have lead to the deaths of possibly thousands of innocent men, women, and children around the globe over the last several years, I can't help but wonder if a drone operators a half a world away from any real danger could also develop PTSD. I thought they had pretty cushy jobs, but what they do must eat at some of them as the body counts add up. I hope their mental health needs aren't dismissed simply because they may have never been "in theater."

 

[oftheherd1]

When I think of soldiers and PTSD, I usually think of soldiers that were in the thick of it, getting shot at or in constant vigilance for IEDs. In light of the US drone attacks that have lead to the deaths of possibly thousands of innocent men, women, and children around the globe over the last several years, I can't help but wonder if a drone operators a half a world away from any real danger could also develop PTSD. I thought they had pretty cushy jobs, but what they do must eat at some of them as the body counts add up. I hope their mental health needs aren't dismissed simply because they may have never been "in theater."

In my limited experience, PTSD is a very personal thing. And it may not be related to direct combat. I know a man who developed PTSD due to thinking he had not done his job correctly. He was in a combat zone, but what he thought he had not done correctly had nothing to do with combat or even direct combat support.

It also has to do with circumstances. I mentioned before in another thread how when and where were important as to how a person might perceive time spent in a combat zone. Fear is a very personal thing as well. What scares one person to a lump of shaking jello, might be considered restful to another. How do you account for that and give a person who is scared to death a different perspective?

How about the person who allows guilt to overcome him and succombs to suicide. Why is there guilt if the person did their job correctly? Are they not living up to what they think are the expectations of them by others or themselves? Where did they get that feeling of non-self worth? That is, did they bring it with them and military service simply exacerbated the problem?

Which brings up a point. The military members come from the civilian populace. We don't breed people who from birth are raised to be soldiers and nothing else. A lot of them bring their problems from civilian life into the military. Some manage to get along, or sometimes even overcome it while serving. For others, it is a downhill slide, which may or may not be made worse by the time in the military. So whose fault is it? Easy to blame the military. But the military, at least in the USA, is under civilian control of the president who is commander in chief, and the congress, who can stop anything they want by cutting funding.

And Big Don, I have to disagree with you as to "Air Farce." The Air Force has the longest tail of any of the services. Their combat forces are actually very small, for all they do. I personally know some Air Force veterans that might fit your description; they seem shallow, extremely self-centered, and unnecessisarily vendictive towards people from other services. Guess what? I knew people like that in the US Army as well. And I have known people who served in the Air Force that were standup people. Good leaders. Mind you, I sometimes tease those from other services myself. But I always try to ensure they know it is simply teasing and that I respect their service abscent some reason otherwise. Sorry, rant over.

 

[oftheherd1]

When I think of soldiers and PTSD, I usually think of soldiers that were in the thick of it, getting shot at or in constant vigilance for IEDs. In light of the US drone attacks that have lead to the deaths of possibly thousands of innocent men, women, and children around the globe over the last several years, I can't help but wonder if a drone operators a half a world away from any real danger could also develop PTSD. I thought they had pretty cushy jobs, but what they do must eat at some of them as the body counts add up. I hope their mental health needs aren't dismissed simply because they may have never been "in theater."

It is a good question to dwell on. You may remember a thread some time back about whether or not drone pilots should be given special combat decorations. My opinion is no, but it is a question worthy of debate. Some Air Force pilots have commented that dropping bombs or straffing little black dots is given a different perspective when they see what their actions have done on the ground. But they are in fact in the combat zone risking return fire. But as I mentioned above, PTSD is imho a very personal thing. So who knows concerning PTSD for drone pilots.

 

[WC_lun]

After a decade of war and our nations tendency to not want to take care of our warriors, is it really a suprise that suicide rates are so high. The last ten years of war have been sureal in that no one really acts as if we are at war. Men and women have been dying, but for most people it feels like something happening to another people, not something directly happening to us as a nation. I can't imagine this is anything but isolating for our military, especially when they return to "normal" life.

 

[sfs982000]

The rate of deployments is way up.

The threat of IEDs and other unexpected attacks is nerve-wracking.

The popular support for the wars is low.

All of this is bad for the troops' morale and mental state.

Well put, I think this sums it up in a nutshell.

 

[sfs982000]

As cuts in military personnel ramp up I can see Vet suicides going up. The military is making good people get out not allowing people to reenlist. If your not ready and don't have a plan or a job ready combined with a feeling the mkitary turned its back on you I can see people giving up.

You bring up really good point here regarding the military cuts that are going on. I've said for years that the military really doesn't do a good job at preparing members for that transition back into the civilian workforce. It's better than what it was, but it's still no where near the level that it should be. Granted there is some ownership on the members being separated to take charge of their careers and plan for that day, but overall the military needs to continue to improve in the transition assistance area.

 

[ballen0351]

You bring up really good point here regarding the military cuts that are going on. I've said for years that the military really doesn't do a good job at preparing members for that transition back into the civilian workforce. It's better than what it was, but it's still no where near the level that it should be. Granted there is some ownership on the members being separated to take charge of their careers and plan for that day, but overall the military needs to continue to improve in the transition assistance area.

I think its worse now. people that plan to reenlist put in the paperwork only to be told a few months before there EAS date that they cant reenlist. Shock to the system making things worse.

 

[sfs982000]

I think its worse now. people that plan to reenlist put in the paperwork only to be told a few months before there EAS date that they cant reenlist. Shock to the system making things worse.

I saw alot of that when I was active duty years ago as well, I saw a lot of good troops denied reenlistment which was a crying shame. It's also becoming an issue with the reserves (at least in the Air Force), they seem to be kicking out folks left and right around here. I'm actually relieved that I retired recently, the higher ups on my base here have really lost track of taking care of their folks and it's a trend that I'm noticing at other bases as well and I don't see it improving any time soon with the draw downs in personnel.

 

[ballen0351]

I saw alot of that when I was active duty years ago as well, I saw a lot of good troops denied reenlistment which was a crying shame. It's also becoming an issue with the reserves (at least in the Air Force), they seem to be kicking out folks left and right around here. I'm actually relieved that I retired recently, the higher ups on my base here have really lost track of taking care of their folks and it's a trend that I'm noticing at other bases as well and I don't see it improving any time soon with the draw downs in personnel.

Yeah one of the guys we just hired was telling me he had 12 years in the Navy. I asked why he got out he was over half done he said it wasnt his choice. Even with a letter of recomndation from an Admiral he said they put everyones name in the computer that want to reenlist and it pick randomly the number of people allowed and he wasnt picked.

 

[oftheherd1]

You bring up really good point here regarding the military cuts that are going on. I've said for years that the military really doesn't do a good job at preparing members for that transition back into the civilian workforce. It's better than what it was, but it's still no where near the level that it should be. Granted there is some ownership on the members being separated to take charge of their careers and plan for that day, but overall the military needs to continue to improve in the transition assistance area.

Just for the sake of curiosity, what can the military do other than what is authorized by congress? And what can the military do period? If you are talking about PTSD, wouldn't that better be handled by the VA? Not trying to be confrontational, just curious how you see it.

 

[sfs982000]

Yeah one of the guys we just hired was telling me he had 12 years in the Navy. I asked why he got out he was over half done he said it wasnt his choice. Even with a letter of recomndation from an Admiral he said they put everyones name in the computer that want to reenlist and it pick randomly the number of people allowed and he wasnt picked.

Sounds very similar to what I experienced as well. Again not to get side tracked from the main topic of this thread, I think a lot of the suicide issues can be prevented if the military steps up and starts taking better care of their troops bottom line.

 

[oftheherd1]

Yeah one of the guys we just hired was telling me he had 12 years in the Navy. I asked why he got out he was over half done he said it wasnt his choice. Even with a letter of recomndation from an Admiral he said they put everyones name in the computer that want to reenlist and it pick randomly the number of people allowed and he wasnt picked.

It is always a problem when congress and the citizens decide they no longer need a military of a certain size. Some people who wanted to stay in after WWII and Korea weren't allowed to do so. That kind of draw down is obvious. There was also one after the end of the cold war. Sometimes the military can get rid of the less productive servicemembers, but sometimes a lot of really good people get rif'ed out as well.

 

[sfs982000]

Just for the sake of curiosity, what can the military do other than what is authorized by congress? And what can the military do period? If you are talking about PTSD, wouldn't that better be handled by the VA? Not trying to be confrontational, just curious how you see it.

I personally don't have a whole lot of faith in the VA myself, both from my own personal experience with an injury, but I've spoken with a number of folks that have returned from deployments that have very negative experiences from the treatment they recieved from the VA. To answer your question, I'm not 100 percent sure what exactly the military can do additionally, but it just seems to me that as the suicide rate has been increasing they (the military) needs to seriously readdress their tactics in regards to that subject. I'm not sure if outsourcing the care to another agency other than the VA is the answer or not.

 

[oftheherd1]

I personally don't have a whole lot of faith in the VA myself, both from my own personal experience with an injury, but I've spoken with a number of folks that have returned from deployments that have very negative experiences from the treatment they recieved from the VA. To answer your question, I'm not 100 percent sure what exactly the military can do additionally, but it just seems to me that as the suicide rate has been increasing they (the military) needs to seriously readdress their tactics in regards to that subject. I'm not sure if outsourcing the care to another agency other than the VA is the answer or not.

Well, it seems to me that the solution should be provided by the VA; that is one of the main things it was set up to do was to help the veteran. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line, it seems they were given new directions. I also, frankly, am not a big fan of the VA, although I think they may have been forced into some courses of action in favor of the veteran, like it or not. Agent orange is an example. They fought that tooth and nail for the longest time.

Even so, I still think that is where it should be done. Keep it separate from military funding. There is enough hue and cry about that now. People want a military that can protect the nation, but they don't want to spend money to pay a decent wage, nor do they want to spend money to keep them with weapons on the cutting edge. Never mind taking care of them if they are wounded, physically or mentally. But yeah, it would take a much more veteran friendly administration, with a congress to fund it, and a citizenship to require it of congress.

Just as an aside, let me jump up on my soapbox on the draft. When we had a draft, a majority of men, as well as a fair amount of volunteer women, spent time in the military. They knew what it was all about; being in the military. They had invested a part of their life in the defense of their country. If there was a question about spending for the military, or the VA, they had personal information from which to make judgements. I just personally think it was a good system. [/Soapbox]

 

[ballen0351]

With the huge number of War Vets now being phased out of the military do you think more of this will happen?

HOUSTON — From his perch in hide-outs above battle-scarred Iraq, Chris Kyle earned a reputation as one of America’s deadliest military snipers. The Pentagon said his skills with a rifle so terrorized Iraqi insurgents during his four tours of duty that they nicknamed him the “Devil of Ramadi” and put a bounty on his head.

The insurgents never collected, and he returned home to become a best-selling author and a mentor to other veterans, sometimes taking them shooting at a gun range near his Texas home as a kind of therapy to salve battlefield scars, friends said. One such veteran was Eddie Ray Routh, a 25-year-old Marine who had served tours in Iraq and Haiti.
But on Saturday, far from a war zone, Mr. Routh turned on Mr. Kyle, 38, and a second man, Chad Littlefield, 35, shortly after they arrived at an exclusive shooting range near Glen Rose, Tex., about 50 miles southwest of Fort Worth, law enforcement authorities said Sunday. The officials said that for reasons that were still unclear, Mr. Routh shot and killed both men with a semiautomatic handgun before fleeing in a pickup truck belonging to Mr. Kyle.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/us/chris-kyle-american-sniper-author-reported-killed.html?_r=0

 

[Tez3]

I don't know how it is with others countries services but here the ones least likley to manage in civvy street are the soldiers. In the RAf and Navy you have a trade that is useful for when you come out, you have to have educational qualifications to get in and gather more as you serve. These two services also allow considrable leeway into what their people do outside work and allow them huge responsibilities within work. In the army by it's very nature this doesn't happen, you rarely need qualifications to join, you don't actually need to be literate or numerate as the army will teach you. If soldiers have a medical/dental appointment it's put on orders and the NCO makes sure they go, in the other two services it's your responsibility to go as it would be in civvy street. If you experience financial, legal or any other type of problem the army will sort it out for you, the RAF and the Navy frown on you if you get into trouble as you are expected to sort this yourself, they will give help but you will not be thought much of. All this means when it comes time for demob whether voluntary or on redundancy the RAF and Navy can already sort life out for themselves, the soldiers mostly cannot. All have a time of resettlement training but it can't make up for as much as 22 years in the army of having everything done for you. Soldiers are by no means stupid, under educated most likely ( but what government wants thinking soldiers!) but are treated as children in many respects. When they are demobbed many feel they have landed in a foreign country where they can't under the langauge, money or housing etc. They get very lost, add to that the lack of camaraderie, lack of security, the very different sense of humour civvies have coupled with being unable and often unwilling to speak of their war experiences many take to drink and drugs and follow the inevitable slide down to hell.

 

[sfs982000]

I don't know how it is with others countries services but here the ones least likley to manage in civvy street are the soldiers. In the RAf and Navy you have a trade that is useful for when you come out, you have to have educational qualifications to get in and gather more as you serve. These two services also allow considrable leeway into what their people do outside work and allow them huge responsibilities within work. In the army by it's very nature this doesn't happen, you rarely need qualifications to join, you don't actually need to be literate or numerate as the army will teach you. If soldiers have a medical/dental appointment it's put on orders and the NCO makes sure they go, in the other two services it's your responsibility to go as it would be in civvy street. If you experience financial, legal or any other type of problem the army will sort it out for you, the RAF and the Navy frown on you if you get into trouble as you are expected to sort this yourself, they will give help but you will not be thought much of. All this means when it comes time for demob whether voluntary or on redundancy the RAF and Navy can already sort life out for themselves, the soldiers mostly cannot. All have a time of resettlement training but it can't make up for as much as 22 years in the army of having everything done for you. Soldiers are by no means stupid, under educated most likely ( but what government wants thinking soldiers!) but are treated as children in many respects. When they are demobbed many feel they have landed in a foreign country where they can't under the langauge, money or housing etc. They get very lost, add to that the lack of camaraderie, lack of security, the very different sense of humour civvies have coupled with being unable and often unwilling to speak of their war experiences many take to drink and drugs and follow the inevitable slide down to hell.

From my experiences it's very similar here in the U.S., sadly I see an increase in the amount of suicides once they start phasing folks out of the military. If a person is still serving and needs assistance with PTSD or any other personal issues they can be monitored better by their superiors, once they're discharged it will be very easy for them to fall off the radar and not get the treatment they need.

 

[sfs982000]

With the huge number of War Vets now being phased out of the military do you think more of this will happen?


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/us/chris-kyle-american-sniper-author-reported-killed.html?_r=0

Unfortunately I'm afraid there will be more instances down the road with the phase outs.