Merging striking and grappling

[Deleted member 39746]

Misleading title perhaps.


But i was just thinking about how you go from say doing Boxing and Judo and how you would go about merging the two together. Im more interested in a striking style and a grappling style being learnt separately and how you would go about making them work together, style doesn't matter of course.

More for anyone who hasnt done something which covers grappling and striking together.

This is more of a curiosity ramble.

 

[skribs]

Go.
Take.
Classes.

It happens quite naturally, and most arts have some element of both, unless they're entirely sport focused.

In my Taekwondo school we drill combinations that combine grabs and strikes all the time. Similar drills are done in Karate, Kung Fu, MMA, Muay Thai, and most other arts. But to learn these you have to...

Go.
To.
Class.

 

[Hanzou]

Old school Gjj (Vale Tudo Bjj) and MMA have already done this, and they've been doing it for decades.

 

[oftheherd1]

Two good answers above, especially @skribs since I know he studies both TKD and HKD. In the Hapkido I studied, we certainly had what you might call pure grappling; dislocating a joint or doing a throw. But many of our techniques began or ended with a strike or kick.

And as he said about his TKD, many arts are keeping their style title, but add things from other arts that just seem to make sense to them for a better rounded basic art.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

After you learn both (which means going to classes), you spar with both allowed. You figure out real quick what works. When you can't figure something out, ask your instructor/sensei/coach and they can help you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you try to integrate boxing and Judo, you will have 3 options:

1. Your boxing instructor helps you to integrate boxing into Judo,
2. Your Judo instructor helps you to integrate Judo into boxing.
3. You have to do that integration all by yourself.

3 may be the most general case. The general path will be:

You use:

1. kicks to set up punches.
2. punches to set up clinch (not commonly trained in either the striking art or the throwing art) .
3. clinch to apply throw.
4. throw to set up ground game.

Since 1 is trained in all striking art. Also 3 and 4 are trained in all throwing art. The only thing that's left is 2, to use punches to set up clinch.

There are many issues involved with the integration.

- Most strikers like to put their strong side back. Most grapplers like to put their strong side forward.
- Move from the Judo jacket wrestling to no-jacket wrestling.
- ...

 

[skribs]

Two good answers above, especially @skribs since I know he studies both TKD and HKD. In the Hapkido I studied, we certainly had what you might call pure grappling; dislocating a joint or doing a throw. But many of our techniques began or ended with a strike or kick.

And as he said about his TKD, many arts are keeping their style title, but add things from other arts that just seem to make sense to them for a better rounded basic art.

While my master does teach Hapkido, in Taekwondo we learn a lot of grabs that - to my understanding - exist in Taekwondo. They might not be taught at a lot of the sport schools that focus on form and sparring competitions, but you will learn them in a school that has more traditional Taekwondo fighting roots.

Now, my Master's knowledge of Hapkido certainly helps, but there is a definite difference in the techniques as we do them in Taekwondo vs. Hapkido. The hand grabs in Taekwondo are easier to learn. The ones in Hapkido are harder to resist and much more painful.

 

[lklawson]

Misleading title perhaps.


But i was just thinking about how you go from say doing Boxing and Judo and how you would go about merging the two together. Im more interested in a striking style and a grappling style being learnt separately and how you would go about making them work together, style doesn't matter of course.

More for anyone who hasnt done something which covers grappling and striking together.

This is more of a curiosity ramble.

It's not all that hard. People do it all the time. Used to be dead common for Judoka in the U.S. to also train Boxing.

In fact, grappling used to be part of boxing:
Banned from Boxing, The forgotten grappling techniques of classic pugilism, 2nd Edition by Kirk Lawson (Paperback) - Lulu

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

If you try to integrate boxing and Judo, you will have 3 options:

1. Your boxing instructor helps you to integrate boxing into Judo,
2. Your Judo instructor helps you to integrate Judo into boxing.
3. You have to do that integration all by yourself.

3 may be the most general case. The general path will be:

You use:

1. kicks to set up punches.
2. punches to set up clinch (not commonly trained in either the striking art or the throwing art) .
3. clinch to apply throw.
4. throw to set up ground game.

Since 1 is trained in all striking art. Also 3 and 4 are trained in all throwing art. The only thing that's left is 2, to use punches to set up clinch.

There are many issues involved with the integration.

- Most strikers like to put their strong side back. Most grapplers like to put their strong side forward.
- Move from the Judo jacket wrestling to no-jacket wrestling.
- ...

It's not exactly a Secret Squirrel thing. MMA guys have been doing for decades.

Boxers have been doing it for centuries:

19442 by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


Shaw's Hip and Shoulder Throw by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


19190 by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Banned from Boxing, The forgotten grappling techniques of classic pugilism, 2nd Edition by Kirk Lawson (Paperback) - Lulu

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Misleading title perhaps.


But i was just thinking about how you go from say doing Boxing and Judo and how you would go about merging the two together. Im more interested in a striking style and a grappling style being learnt separately and how you would go about making them work together, style doesn't matter of course.

More for anyone who hasnt done something which covers grappling and striking together.

This is more of a curiosity ramble.

There are some different approaches to this integration, so you'll probably find some different answers. In part, if you do both and use them together in sparring, you'll start to slide back and forth between them pretty quickly. But if someone was working to consciously knit them together, they might spend time working on combos that include both. So, instead of working a jab-slip-counter straight combo, they might work a jab-shoot-single leg combo. If you think about it, what we call "combos" are just separate techniques stitched together so you can practice the transitions. If you know a few transitions that work well (for whatever context you're training for), then you can practice those specifically.

I tend to simply fight for openings, as my conceptual approach. So in sparring, I'm working striking to get to grappling. I use the strikes to work my way to an opening that allows me to grapple. And if I'm grappling and not doing well, I can use grappling control to create an opening to strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

instead of working a jab-slip-counter straight combo, they might work a jab-shoot-single leg combo.

Agree! You will fight the way you train. Will you train this combo in your boxing class, or Judo class?

 

[frank raud]

Most Westernised jiu jitsu will have a combination of striking and grappling. Mikonosuke Kawaishi's jiu jitsu as shown in My Method of Self Defense is explained as "blow-throw-blow" using striking(atemi) as a form of kuzushi(off balancing) to set up a throw, followed by a finishing strike. Training boxing and judo separately is great, but where are you going to practice combining the two arts? I've never been allowed to practice striking in a judo class, and most boxers don't have grappling experience to allow you to throw them. Grappling and striking have been combined in various arts for years.

 

[oftheherd1]

While my master does teach Hapkido, in Taekwondo we learn a lot of grabs that - to my understanding - exist in Taekwondo. They might not be taught at a lot of the sport schools that focus on form and sparring competitions, but you will learn them in a school that has more traditional Taekwondo fighting roots.

Now, my Master's knowledge of Hapkido certainly helps, but there is a definite difference in the techniques as we do them in Taekwondo vs. Hapkido. The hand grabs in Taekwondo are easier to learn. The ones in Hapkido are harder to resist and much more painful.

I suspect TKD once had some grabs since as I have stated before, a 4th dan student I had recognized some moves in some HKD techniques as being in some TKD forms. He had been told they were part of the "art" of TKD when he asked, since there seemed to be no application of the moves. For whatever reason they have been left in some forms with no idea why. It may be your master, knowing both, has recognized what they are and put them back in the TKD curriculum. Neat if so.

 

[skribs]

I suspect TKD once had some grabs since as I have stated before, a 4th dan student I had recognized some moves in some HKD techniques as being in some TKD forms. He had been told they were part of the "art" of TKD when he asked, since there seemed to be no application of the moves. For whatever reason they have been left in some forms with no idea why. It may be your master, knowing both, has recognized what they are and put them back in the TKD curriculum. Neat if so.

We usually teach them outside of the forms. We don't do much form -> application at my school.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Training boxing and judo separately is great, but where are you going to practice combining the two arts? I've never been allowed to practice striking in a judo class, and most boxers don't have grappling experience to allow you to throw them.

Agree! The follow combo sequence cannot be learned in boxing school, or in Judo school.

 

[JR 137]

Enshin karate has been doing this since it’s inception. And before that when Joko Ninomiya (founder of Enshin) was a student in Ashihara karate.

Enshin karate has Judo throws and I believe some groundwork in it. Ninomiya was I believe 3rd dan in Judo. Most of the old-school Kyokushin guys (where Ninomiya started) were also Judo black belts. As were a lot of other karate styles’ practitioners.

I think it’s more of a relatively new thing for people to NOT do both - grappling and striking - than it is to do it. I think about 3 generations or so ago, more people did both rather than one or another.

Enshin’s Sabaki Challenge highlights, because I love it...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Enshin karate has been doing this since it’s inception. And before that when Joko Ninomiya (founder of Enshin) was a student in Ashihara karate.

Enshin karate has Judo throws and I believe some groundwork in it. Ninomiya was I believe 3rd dan in Judo. Most of the old-school Kyokushin guys (where Ninomiya started) were also Judo black belts. As were a lot of other karate styles’ practitioners.

I think it’s more of a relatively new thing for people to NOT do both - grappling and striking - than it is to do it. I think about 3 generations or so ago, more people did both rather than one or another.

Enshin’s Sabaki Challenge highlights, because I love it...

Kenpo had the same thing. Everyone who started out in it new judo.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Misleading title perhaps.


But i was just thinking about how you go from say doing Boxing and Judo and how you would go about merging the two together. Im more interested in a striking style and a grappling style being learnt separately and how you would go about making them work together, style doesn't matter of course.

More for anyone who hasnt done something which covers grappling and striking together.

This is more of a curiosity ramble.

That's what I think MMA is for. If you've already got a good background in a striking style and a good background in a grappling style MMA helps you merge them. So as you say, learn a striking style and a grappling style separately and then once you're well versed in both take up MMA to help you merge them.