T
thaiboxer
Guest
what are your views on this one?
This isn't a very focused question! Some arts are one or the other and some have aspects of both. I have previously posted some thoughts on the matter here to the effect that martial "sports" make some of the most effective fighters--Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Boxing for example. Other martial sports may not be nearly as effective in producing good fighters--Kendo, Fencing, and Arm-Wrestling for example. They no doubt confer some benefits, including overall fitness and perhaps agility, but don't prepare one as well for self-defense outside of a contest with such limited rules.
In some ways Tae Kwon Do contests that restrict one from punching to the head and hence encourage lowering of the guard to defend against kicks is similar to any other art that imposes a restriction, e.g. Boxing where one knows that it will never be necessary to defend against a kick, or Wrestling where one knows that it will never be necessary to defend against a strike (or bite). The question becomes one of translating that effectively to a more general self-defense situation. As a FMA practitioner I can't understand why more of you don't spend more time learning how to defend against sticks or fight knife-to-knife! It depends on your set of assumptions. One plays by the rules in a martial sport--be it the rules of competition in Yaw-Yan, Kyudo, Glima, or Greco-Roman Wrestling. (Should we include Rifle competition, or the Biathalon?) But since one fights as one trains, some sports are better preparation for some self-defense situations than others. I say again, I could easily ask why BJJ or Muay Thai or Boxing practitioners don't spend more time worrying about the knife--how realistic is that for self-defense?
All that having been said, I also enjoy the aesthetic aspects of martial arts, much as my young daughter enjoys ballet. I don't think there's anything wrong with that either. I enjoy reading about, talking about, writing about, and practicing the martial arts. I loved iaido but it's effects on my self-defense capabilities were minimal. I enjoyed perfecting kata; I believed and continue to believe that they have self-defense value but I also enjoyed the kata for their own, artsy sake.
Yari
Master Black Belt
Very well put arnisador! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :boing2:
/Yari
/Yari
OP
Despairbear
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #4
Greetings all,
I tend to draw the line when a form uses target restriction, then it has turned to a martial sport.
Despair Bear
I tend to draw the line when a form uses target restriction, then it has turned to a martial sport.
Despair Bear
It's true that we fight how we train, too. Especially those of us who train only for sports. Then within that genre we see sport training being specific to a certain style.
In fact if you can see a perfect example of this if you were to watch some old footage of one of Australia's greatest kickboxers, Slammin' Sam Greco. In the early days, just after he had left Kyokushin, (apologies if it's spelt wrong), he used to fight with his hands down near his chest. A couple of shots to the head and up they'd go. After a while he learnt to keep them up, and the rest, as they say is history.
--Dave:asian:
In fact if you can see a perfect example of this if you were to watch some old footage of one of Australia's greatest kickboxers, Slammin' Sam Greco. In the early days, just after he had left Kyokushin, (apologies if it's spelt wrong), he used to fight with his hands down near his chest. A couple of shots to the head and up they'd go. After a while he learnt to keep them up, and the rest, as they say is history.
--Dave:asian:
I think you guys have got it covered.
My opinion:
A 'sport' is one where its not life and death. You go for the point, the score. Getting hit once, isn't too bad. You rarely have to worry about crippling injuries, or a fatality.
A 'art' is one done for personal improvement, be it physical, mental or spiritual. There is less or no focus on getting a point in a competition, but on being the best you can be. In some styles, this may mean doing the forms perfectly. In others, surviving and winning brutal fights. But it is about being the best you can be.
Theres much overlap, yet also seperations. Being the best stickfighter on the tourny circuit is different than being the best on the streets on Manilla. Yet its the same.
I think.
My opinion:
A 'sport' is one where its not life and death. You go for the point, the score. Getting hit once, isn't too bad. You rarely have to worry about crippling injuries, or a fatality.
A 'art' is one done for personal improvement, be it physical, mental or spiritual. There is less or no focus on getting a point in a competition, but on being the best you can be. In some styles, this may mean doing the forms perfectly. In others, surviving and winning brutal fights. But it is about being the best you can be.
Theres much overlap, yet also seperations. Being the best stickfighter on the tourny circuit is different than being the best on the streets on Manilla. Yet its the same.
I think.
OP
thaiboxer
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #7
thats just poor technique from greco id say. geez i wouldnt give a mug a chance to hit me in the head, ive learnt my lessons in sparring let me tell you. better there than on the street though
OP
thaiboxer
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #8
I like this, and yet somehow I feel that the self-defense aspect isn't adequately covered by it. Remember that most of these arts were originally practiced for neither of these reasons--not for sport and not for improvement but simply for survival, for staying alive. One could construe improvement broadly enough to cover that I suppose and yet it just doesn't seem to be addressed completely. Overall I like your division though Kaith!
I also think that many (not all!) practitioners of what could be called martial sport look for external gratification, in terms of rank in standings, career points or other such records, and even crowd appreciation in some instances.
Practitioners of martial art usually look for internal gratification: pleasure in mastering something that was difficult as a beginner, a calmer mind, more even temperament, the mastery of one's own mind by mastering one's own body. All all of that other Zen/hippie mumbo-jumbo
To me, sport is just sport...no martial sport, just sport. Boxing is a sport. Kickboxing is a sport. Is it possible to use them to defend yourself? Yes. However, the primary goal is sports competition.
Judo, muay Thai, and the like are a bit different in that there is often a strong element of cultural tradition involved. Even there are elements that are pure sports competition, the cultural influence is always present.
Too many gray areas. I give up.
Cthulhu
Practitioners of martial art usually look for internal gratification: pleasure in mastering something that was difficult as a beginner, a calmer mind, more even temperament, the mastery of one's own mind by mastering one's own body. All all of that other Zen/hippie mumbo-jumbo
To me, sport is just sport...no martial sport, just sport. Boxing is a sport. Kickboxing is a sport. Is it possible to use them to defend yourself? Yes. However, the primary goal is sports competition.
Judo, muay Thai, and the like are a bit different in that there is often a strong element of cultural tradition involved. Even there are elements that are pure sports competition, the cultural influence is always present.
Too many gray areas. I give up.
Cthulhu
OP
white dragon
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #11
I think you're never going to come up with an answer to this. Being a great sprinter may be a good form of self defence from an attack, but that doesn't count it as a martial art.
Would you consider fencing to be a martial art?
Would you consider fencing to be a martial art?
I think there is so much room for greyness in this issue, that you're right. We will never find 'the' answer, but we've both expanded and condenced the definition. (does that make sence?)
Hmm...fencing.... yes and no. My opinion is that while it does have martial applications, its lumped with kendo, as its more 'point' orientated, vs combat oriented.
Hmm...fencing.... yes and no. My opinion is that while it does have martial applications, its lumped with kendo, as its more 'point' orientated, vs combat oriented.
OP
thaiboxer
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #13
interesting debate... I think both aspects have value.
TallAdam85
3rd Black Belt
This is just my idea.
I LOVE MARTIAL ARTS I train at a school that is a very tradition school we don't train much for tournaments only train for them 3 times a year when the org where in puts them in. I enjoy learning tradition martial arts but after I went to my first tournament I knew right then I want to train hard and someday be a world champ. I am working hard to someday be a world champ I am first in a few circuits right now but Still working on more. But since my school does not train much for tournaments I had to go to a school witch trained more for tournaments.
But I Still train in sport and tradition karate
I LOVE MARTIAL ARTS I train at a school that is a very tradition school we don't train much for tournaments only train for them 3 times a year when the org where in puts them in. I enjoy learning tradition martial arts but after I went to my first tournament I knew right then I want to train hard and someday be a world champ. I am working hard to someday be a world champ I am first in a few circuits right now but Still working on more. But since my school does not train much for tournaments I had to go to a school witch trained more for tournaments.
But I Still train in sport and tradition karate
OP
Kempo Guy
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #16
What exactly is the question? I'm not sure I get it...
FWIW, in Japan they actually differentiate between martial -art, -way and -sport. The terms usually used in describing these are:
Kakutogi - kickboxing, mma etc. So in essence we're talking of combat sports.
Bujutsu / Bugei - generally old school (koryu) martial arts.
Budo - most arts that have the suffix -do attached to it's name. This could be an art that has sport as part (large or small) of their curriculum.
There is no clear lines in terms of definition of the two terms, Budo & Bujutsu, as many practitioners (and teachers) of Bujutsu often refer to what they do as Budo...
Just thought I'd share.
KG
FWIW, in Japan they actually differentiate between martial -art, -way and -sport. The terms usually used in describing these are:
Kakutogi - kickboxing, mma etc. So in essence we're talking of combat sports.
Bujutsu / Bugei - generally old school (koryu) martial arts.
Budo - most arts that have the suffix -do attached to it's name. This could be an art that has sport as part (large or small) of their curriculum.
There is no clear lines in terms of definition of the two terms, Budo & Bujutsu, as many practitioners (and teachers) of Bujutsu often refer to what they do as Budo...
Just thought I'd share.
KG
Cruentus
Grandmaster
In Martial Arts you can train for...
1. Competition: Point fighting, Kickboxing, NHB fighting, etc.
2. Exhibition: Board Breaking, Forms, Demonstrations, impressing your friends with your MA "feats", etc.
3. Combat: Real life self defense/offense.
In #1 there are some elements of #2 and #3, but the training is geared towards competition.
In #2 there are some elements of #1 and #3; in other words there are things that may help your competition or combat, but it is mostly geared towards exhibition.
#3 is the same; some of the combat stuff may look good enough for exhibition, or may be useful in competition, but you are training and gearing yourself up for real life, no rules, life or death scenario's.
I train almost soley for #3. The arts I study are designed for mostly combat; not competition or exhibition. I consider the "ART" exhibition more-so then the rest.
Most arts are designed or geared for one of the 3. It is important to recognize which one your art is geared for so that you know why your training the way you are. In otherwords, if you train for submission wrestling competition, or boxing competition, don't fool yourself into thinking your training for #3 also. You are training to compete. If you recognize this, then you can make the modifications if you ever have to use your competition skills for combat. "I won't try this takedown on concrete" for example. This works the same way in all directions. If I all I do is Kata's, for example, I wouldn't think that my kata's would allow me to beat a boxer in a boxing match. I would, however, be able to train for the boxing match seperately, using whatever attributes I attained from my forms practice to help me along.
Make sense? This is the way I look at it, anyways.
1. Competition: Point fighting, Kickboxing, NHB fighting, etc.
2. Exhibition: Board Breaking, Forms, Demonstrations, impressing your friends with your MA "feats", etc.
3. Combat: Real life self defense/offense.
In #1 there are some elements of #2 and #3, but the training is geared towards competition.
In #2 there are some elements of #1 and #3; in other words there are things that may help your competition or combat, but it is mostly geared towards exhibition.
#3 is the same; some of the combat stuff may look good enough for exhibition, or may be useful in competition, but you are training and gearing yourself up for real life, no rules, life or death scenario's.
I train almost soley for #3. The arts I study are designed for mostly combat; not competition or exhibition. I consider the "ART" exhibition more-so then the rest.
Most arts are designed or geared for one of the 3. It is important to recognize which one your art is geared for so that you know why your training the way you are. In otherwords, if you train for submission wrestling competition, or boxing competition, don't fool yourself into thinking your training for #3 also. You are training to compete. If you recognize this, then you can make the modifications if you ever have to use your competition skills for combat. "I won't try this takedown on concrete" for example. This works the same way in all directions. If I all I do is Kata's, for example, I wouldn't think that my kata's would allow me to beat a boxer in a boxing match. I would, however, be able to train for the boxing match seperately, using whatever attributes I attained from my forms practice to help me along.
Make sense? This is the way I look at it, anyways.
