Martial Artist, what does that mean?

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,385
Reaction score
4,697
Location
England
The batcher of art (BA) require 4 years of college study with about 120 hours credit total. The master of art (MA) will require 2 more years after that

It doesn't work like that here in the UK or most of Europe.
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,292
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
No matter which angle that I may look at the following picture, I just don't see much art there.


fist_meets_face.jpg

However, you are only looking a small piece of the total

How much art is seen in this masterpiece.
.pic 1.jpg
 
OP
Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,817
Reaction score
7,470
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
okay. I guess we have different thoughts on the matter. I would consider you a musician. Maybe not a very good one, but a musician nonetheless. But to be clear, this is just my thought, since you asked.

No worries, its a discussion, not an argument.....

although the "not a very good one" was rather insulting and deserves the proper response so...:You have offended my family, and you have offended the Shaolin Temple... now of course the required posturing, challenges, banter, some Chinese guy with one hand and of course the death match must ensue on some island near Hong Kong :D
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,414
Reaction score
5,909
Location
Covington, WA
I think a really good place to start is the definition of the term "art." It seems to me that a lot of people here have a skewed perspective of what the word really means, and are applying it in only one very specific way.

MW:
1: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : liberal arts
b archaic : learning, scholarship
3: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced
b (1) : fine arts (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5a archaic : a skillful plan
b : the quality or state of being artful
6: decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter
Art is more than just the masterpieces that are hanging in a gallery. Art is any creative endeavor, successful or not. There is good art and bad art, popular art, serious art. There are all kinds of art, and it's all art, regardless of the value we place on it.

It is also any area of study, or skills acquired through practice, which is far more relevant to the term martial arts than references to music, dancing, painting or sculpture.

If you look at any of the major sites (I didn't look at them all, but I'm going out on a limb), I think you'll see a pretty consistent definition. What you won't see are indications that something must meet a certain standard to be considered "art." I frankly don't understand why we put the term artist on a pedestal. It's just a descriptor, and means nothing more than that someone does something. Among painters or musicians or martial artists or blacksmiths or any other "art" there are some who are novices, some who are experts. And some who truly elevate the art to a new level.
 
Last edited:

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,414
Reaction score
5,909
Location
Covington, WA
No worries, its a discussion, not an argument.....

although the "not a very good one" was rather insulting and deserves the proper response so...:You have offended my family, and you have offended the Shaolin Temple... now of course the required posturing, challenges, banter, some Chinese guy with one hand and of course the death match must ensue on some island near Hong Kong :D
I was only going by your own self description. If you can play a few chords, you're ahead of me! :) I'm really just trying to distinguish between the term "artist" or "musician" and the judgment of skill. You can be a good musician or a bad one.

I truly wasn't trying to be insulting, and I appreciate that you took my comment as intended.
 
OP
Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,817
Reaction score
7,470
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I think a really good place to start is the definition of the term "art." It seems to me that a lot of people here have a skewed perspective of what the word really means, and are applying it in only one very specific way.

Art is more than just the masterpieces that are hanging in a gallery. Art is any creative endeavor, successful or not. There is good art and bad art, popular art, serious art. There are all kinds of art, and it's all art, regardless of the value we place on it.

It is also any area of study, or skills acquired through practice, which is far more relevant to the term martial arts than references to music, dancing, painting or sculpture.

If you look at any of the major sites (I didn't look at them all, but I'm going out on a limb), I think you'll see a pretty consistent definition. What you won't see are indications that something must meet a certain standard to be considered "art." I frankly don't understand why we put the term artist on a pedestal. It's just a descriptor, and means nothing more than that someone does something. Among painters or musicians or martial artists or blacksmiths or any other "art" there are some who are novices, some who are experts. And some who truly elevate the art to a new level.

To be honest, at one time I was a big proponent of using the word artist as a martial artist label, not being pretentious, but looking at it as what you said "skills acquired through practice". But of late I am not so sure it is worth the hassle and the occasional pretentiousness that comes with the label.

I am actually more interested in what defines a person as a martial "artist" tham what artist or art actuall means. But I do agree that it is likely the best place to start in order to properly discuss this since it is always good to understand the meaning of words before you go off and try and figure out what the applied label is suppose to means.


And while I'm thinking about it, back to the "posturing, challenges, banter, and of course the death match" I'm free in mid-September if you are, and then all that needs to be done is finding some Chinese guy with one hand can fit it into his schedule and of course the proper island of the island of Hong Kong to meet on.... my only requirement is a 5 star hotel :D
 

hoshin1600

Senior Master
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
3,045
Reaction score
1,527
Just for the record you could dedicated your entire life to a didgeridoo and it still wouldn't be music coming out of that thing...sounds like a food processor .....just joking. I actually wish I had one.
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,175
Reaction score
749
.....all that needs to be done is finding some Chinese guy with one hand can fit it into his schedule and of course the proper island of the island of Hong Kong to meet on.... my only requirement is a 5 star hotel :D

I would say any good travel agent should be able to help you out.
 
OP
Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,817
Reaction score
7,470
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
Just for the record you could dedicated your entire life to a didgeridoo and it still wouldn't be music coming out of that thing...sounds like a food processor .....just joking. I actually wish I had one.

oh so your looking for a trip to an island off of Hong Kong too..is that it...DON'T...dis...the didge :D
 

hoshin1600

Senior Master
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
3,045
Reaction score
1,527
oh so your looking for a trip to an island off of Hong Kong too..is that it...DON'T...dis...the didge :D
but i practice the art of fighting without fighting...you see if i get into this little raft and cut the rope like this....oops..wait ... crap i got that wrong
 

pgsmith

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
1,589
Reaction score
481
Location
Texas
I kick therefore I'm a martial artist
Or a donkey, they kick pretty well also. Of course, I've met several people that the two would overlap ... :)

My personal thought is that anyone can call themselves pretty much whatever they want, as long as it's not against the law. If someone that is learning to play an instrument wishes to call themselves a musician, how arrogant and egotistical would I have to be to proclaim that they aren't? Same with an artist. I feel I have no right (not to mention no desire) to tell them they can't call themselves whatever they wish. The same is true of martial arts, in my opinion.
 
OP
Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,817
Reaction score
7,470
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I have no desire to tell someone the can or cannot call themselves a martial artist either, I am mostly curious as to what it is supposed to mean in the 21st century, And to be honest the more I type "artist" and think of the label "Martial Artist" I am not really comfortable with it, it is just a label after all, but "Artist" brings in a whole lot of excess baggage.
 
Last edited:
OP
Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,817
Reaction score
7,470
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
Possibly a better question, is it ok for just anyone to call themselves a Aikidoka, or a Judoka or a Karateteka, or a Wushu/Kung Fu person, or an Eskrimador, or a lutador?

And/or what does it mean to use those labels, can you refer to yourself as one of those if you train once a week, once a month once every 6 months, or if they train exclusively by watching YouTube Videos...would any of those labels still apply
 
OP
Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,817
Reaction score
7,470
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I am starting to believe the question is wrong.

There is no definition of "marital artist" that all will agree on and to be honest that is not what I am after. I have allowed and contributed to post drift in a direction that I did not intend and I believe that is because of the wording of the original question.

what it takes to truly call yourself a martial artist, to legitimately be a marital artists

First I am getting more and more uncomfortable with the term "Artist" and that is likely my newly acquired bias towards the word. But it is not a definition that I am after it is more philosophical and from that it becomes a more personal description and because of that there will likely be no agreed upon way of describing it.

I asked on another site "What is it to be a marital artist" and that may be a better question, but then maybe it is not.

And since I am not sure of the question maybe it is best just to walk away form the entire thread and leave it at that
 

donald1

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
3,488
Reaction score
740
I have no desire to tell someone the can or cannot call themselves a martial artist either, I am mostly curious as to what it is supposed to mean in the 21st century, And to be honest the more I type "artist" and think of the label "Martial Artist" I am not really comfortable with it, it is just a label after all, but "Artist" brings in a whole lot of excess baggage.

Not sure about other people who use the term "martial artist" I use it from time to time (mostly because it seems to fit the description, im not going to call myself a sports athlete) though personally I prefer to say practitioner of the arts

Although I guess it dosnt matter what you call yourself, as long as you enjoy what your doing (and hopefully your doing it good) thats all that matters

However, you are only looking a small piece of the total

How much art is seen in this masterpiece.
.View attachment 19397

Depends who you ask, in my opinion art is what someone thinks it is. Someone might look at that picture and call it art, some may say its just a yellow square (not art), or they might say its both
 

Brian R. VanCise

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
27,758
Reaction score
1,517
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
I don't use the term "martial artist" but instead martial practitioner. I really don't view what I do as art but more as a means of studying martial ways.
 

Brian R. VanCise

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
27,758
Reaction score
1,517
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
If someone asked me what makes a martial practitioner? I would answer someone that trains in a martial system/science or way. Within the term "martial practitioner" there would be hobbyists and or course serious practitioner's but in the end they all just train!
 

pgsmith

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
1,589
Reaction score
481
Location
Texas
I am starting to believe the question is wrong.
I believe so.

There is no definition of "marital artist" that all will agree on and to be honest that is not what I am after. I have allowed and contributed to post drift in a direction that I did not intend and I believe that is because of the wording of the original question.
I agree with this also.

First I am getting more and more uncomfortable with the term "Artist" and that is likely my newly acquired bias towards the word. But it is not a definition that I am after it is more philosophical and from that it becomes a more personal description and because of that there will likely be no agreed upon way of describing it.

I asked on another site "What is it to be a marital artist" and that may be a better question, but then maybe it is not.

And since I am not sure of the question maybe it is best just to walk away form the entire thread and leave it at that

It probably would be better to start a new thread, but you should figure out just what it is that you are wishing to discuss. That way you'll stand a better chance of asking the right questions to ignite the desired discussion. All of your questions to this point have been about what people would be willing to try and force others to adhere to. Perhaps you would do better asking questions about what definitions others would impose on themselves. For instance, I never refer to myself or think of myself as a "martial artist". I always refer to myself, and others, as practitioners because that's what we do.
 
OP
Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,817
Reaction score
7,470
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
It probably would be better to start a new thread, but you should figure out just what it is that you are wishing to discuss. That way you'll stand a better chance of asking the right questions to ignite the desired discussion. All of your questions to this point have been about what people would be willing to try and force others to adhere to. Perhaps you would do better asking questions about what definitions others would impose on themselves. For instance, I never refer to myself or think of myself as a "martial artist". I always refer to myself, and others, as practitioners because that's what we do.

That I do completely disagree with by the way, at no point was I forcing anyone to adhere to anything, I was asking questions, possibly uncomfortable questions for some and possibly the wrong questions, but at no point was I asking anyone to comply to anything nor was I trying to force anyone into any belief of my own. I did disagree with some and ask more questions for clarification or to get deeper into the topic. Any feeling of being forced is all from your perception.
 
Top