Leung Jan and the 3 forms

Kung Fu Wang

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I suspect a lot of weapons forms were borrowed around from one system to another ...
When a WC guy holds on his weapon, his body method will look no different from other MA system's body method.

The moment that people pick up weapon, they all fight the same way.

Does this mean that weapon has no style boundary?


 
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Flying Crane

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When a WC guy holds on his weapon, his body method will look no different from other MA system's body method.

The moment that people pick up weapon, they all fight the same way.

Does this mean that weapon has no style boundary?


Interesting question. I do know that there are different ways to use the same weapon. Chen taiji dao looks pretty different from the dao that we do in Tibetan crane. The above staff set, which we also do a similar set in Tibetan crane is taught as staff, but is modified spear. But we also have another spear set that looks rather different and uses different techniques. So they arent all the same, although I get your meaning about the stances. None of it looks like wing chuns primary stance.

I suppose empty-hand methods developed with the influence of the weapons methods that were prevalent at the time. Perhaps newer systems like wing Chun did not have that influence on its development because there were no prominent weapons methods being widely practiced at that time.
 
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hunschuld

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The WC pole training use much lower stance than the WC open hand training.

What do you think the reason is?

Pole is for training body unity, power generation and ging development if you are traditional. Pole help trains the lower body and the waist. Low horse is very important for many reasons. Trains level changing. Low horse was part of wing chun training. Our Chum Kui has a low horse section .Low stance and kneeling stance is in Bui Jee. Low horse is in the dummy form and two of the 12 sections of the knife form are performed in low horse..
At least two of the early wing chun masters had been pole men on the red boats and it is said the pole skills come from them. Also in the 1860s kung fu was not a religion. people swapped skills. Some stories have the pole being swapped for hand skills.

There is a vidio out there of a 60 yr Yip Man doing some of the pole. When you see his low horse you will see he had to have spent some time training the stance. Also in Foshan he was known for winning a fight with the kneeling stance. He and others of his generation may not have passed on these skills but it doesn't mean they are not there.
 
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hunschuld

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That's how I feel too. It's like the moment that you start to train the WC "6 and 1/2 point pole form", the moment that you start to train a completely different MA system.

During the ancient time, nobody fought open hand in battlefield. The open hand training is just a beginner level training that help you to reach to the advance level weapon training. IMO, the advance level weapon training foundation should be built during the beginning level open hand training.
Wing Chun was not developed as a battlefield art. In fact the goal of most was to stay out of battles. There is a reason wing chun from Laung Jan's time onward does not have a martial salute. There was one when it was developed but the salute was dropped so as not to antagonize the Ching after the Red Turban rebellion was put down.
 
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hunschuld

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When a WC guy holds on his weapon, his body method will look no different from other MA system's body method.

The moment that people pick up weapon, they all fight the same way.

Does this mean that weapon has no style boundary?


Not sure this is true. If you observe the videos in this link you will see one does not hold or handle the pole like the others do.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Not sure this is true. If you observe the videos in this link you will see one does not hold or handle the pole like the others do.
The WC single head pole skill may come from the spear skill. What's the difference between a WC guy holds on a pole and a CMA guy holds on a spear?

hold_spear.jpg
 

Flying Crane

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Not sure this is true. If you observe the videos in this link you will see one does not hold or handle the pole like the others do.
The wing Chun pole form looks very very similar to a form we have in Tibetan crane, and what exists in other styles as well. Same technique, same stances, etc.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The wing Chun pole form looks very very similar to a form we have in Tibetan crane, and what exists in other styles as well. Same technique, same stances, etc.
- Taiji sword makes the movement slow.
- Baji sword adds in power generation.

Are those necessary in weapon training? IMO, to add in style flavor into the weapon training has little value. You just want to poke a hole through your opponent's chest with your spear, no more and no less.
 
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- Taiji sword makes the movement slow.
- Baji sword adds in power generation.

Are those necessary in weapon training? IMO, to add in style flavor into the weapon training has little value. You just want to poke a hole through your opponent's chest with your spear, no more and no less.
Which is why, I think, weapons methods seem to get shared around and the same or very similar material is found in many styles.
 
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hunschuld

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The wing Chun pole form looks very very similar to a form we have in Tibetan crane, and what exists in other styles as well. Same technique, same stances, etc.
WC pole and techniques are not unique. However I am not talking about techniques rather how those techniques are performed.

Pole teaches body unity and ging development. most of the videos the people are moving the pole with their arms. Pole is meant to be used with the body.
Kuen Kuit " pole only makes one sound". Only one video is showing full body power. The front leg is used as a fulcrum. Only one video is performed that way. In the sparring video look at the way balance is lost. The pole is to be gripped to the back end. Look at how forward the rear grip is. Look at how the arms are doing all the work . You can see the wide circles and large movements. Circles should be small and tight. Movements very tight not wide. You only achieve this using the body.

Traditional long pole can be 13 feet. Most of the people shown would not be able to handle a 13 foot pole.

Did not intend this thread to be about the pole,sorry.
 
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hunschuld

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The WC single head pole skill may come from the spear skill. What's the difference between a WC guy holds on a pole and a CMA guy holds on a spear?

View attachment 29794
I am not looking at techniques but how those techniques are performed. Based on the picture above there is a subtle difference however most wc folks grip like above. .
I can not comment on other CMA's .
 

geezer

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When a WC guy holds on his weapon, his body method will look no different from other MA system's body method.

The moment that people pick up weapon, they all fight the same way. Does this mean that weapon has no style boundary?
It depends.

If you wait five to ten years before finally being allowed to spend a great deal of money to learn a few magical pole movements that are the secrets of your lineage, then your WC/WT/VT pole movements will be quite unique and unlike what others do.

On the other hand, if you train to develop simple, practical technique with power, speed and accuracy ....and don't worry too much about moving precisely in accordance with some traditional ideal, well then, yeah, your weapons skills will not be specific to one particular system.

They will, however, be functional. ;)
 

Flying Crane

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It depends.

If you wait five to ten years before finally being allowed to spend a great deal of money to learn a few magical pole movements that are the secrets of your lineage, then your WC/WT/VT pole movements will be quite unique and unlike what others do.

On the other hand, if you train to develop simple, practical technique with power, speed and accuracy ....and don't worry too much about moving precisely in accordance with some traditional ideal, well then, yeah, your weapons skills will not be specific to one particular system.

They will, however, be functional. ;)
Shockingly well said, sir.
 

Flying Crane

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WC pole and techniques are not unique. However I am not talking about techniques rather how those techniques are performed.

Pole teaches body unity and ging development. most of the videos the people are moving the pole with their arms. Pole is meant to be used with the body.
Kuen Kuit " pole only makes one sound". Only one video is showing full body power. The front leg is used as a fulcrum. Only one video is performed that way. In the sparring video look at the way balance is lost. The pole is to be gripped to the back end. Look at how forward the rear grip is. Look at how the arms are doing all the work . You can see the wide circles and large movements. Circles should be small and tight. Movements very tight not wide. You only achieve this using the body.

Traditional long pole can be 13 feet. Most of the people shown would not be able to handle a 13 foot pole.

Did not intend this thread to be about the pole,sorry.
The 13 foot pole is probably not terribly common, at least not in the modern world. Transporting it anywhere tends to be problematic, you almost gotta rent a flatbed truck. But the rest of what you describe is not unusual. I will say that the skill of the individual in doing it properly may vary quite a lot.
 
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hunschuld

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WC pole and techniques are not unique. However I am not talking about techniques rather how those techniques are performed

You start to mention pole training in your thread.
Thread was sharing the origin of the hand forms. Mention of pole and knives was only to answer a question about fighting strategy because that is where these are found.

I do not mind talking about the weapons just did not intend to go there. In wing chun weapons start many other rabbit holes discussions can go down.
 

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Thanks for the detailed info on the forms hunschuld

Do your forms have any Qi gong aspects in it?
 
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