Leg Deflecting

mook jong man

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Just as an example if we consider an attack such as a kick to the groin or any type of frontal kick towards our centerline .

If we have time and distance at our disposal , ie the attacker at least has to step in to execute the attack , then in our lineage our preference is to raise our leg so that our knee and heel are on the centerline .

The impact of the kick is then taken on the bottom of our heel which acts like a limb destruction on the opponents shin , from that contact point , our same leg will then move to the inside of his leg and continue on to kick the opponents groin.

This is in the case of a right leg to right leg configuration , if its the same side leg then we just jam , step down and hook kick the opponents thigh with the other leg.

If the scenario is that the attacker is already in range when he launches the attack , then it becomes a bit problematic to execute the jam because he has already initiated the attack and we are playing catch up to try and get our heel up on top of his shin.

This is where leg deflection comes into play , although it can be done at long range I prefer to think of it as a late phase technique and jamming as an early phase technique.

In other words if I pick up his intention to kick , early on in his preparation then I will jam , if I only recognise it at the last second then I tend to use a leg deflection.
With the jamming I prefer to use opposite leg to opposite leg eg right vs right and left vs left so I can jam , then get on the inside of the opponents leg and counter attack their groin.

With the deflection I prefer to use the other leg eg same side leg vs same side leg , or left vs left or right vs right and I will explain my reasoning in a little bit

I know different lineages have different fighting stances and ours is Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma so the mechanics might be slightly different to those that fight with one leg leading.

But if you are surprise attacked and you are just standing there in a neutral stance what do you prefer to do?
Assuming you are not too slow to react and just absorb the kick , if doing the deflection do you prefer to deflect from the inside or to the outside.

My preference is to deflect from the outside , and it has a bit to do with shin conditioning .
When you deflect on the inside , despite your best efforts there will always be a bit of heavy contact between your shin and the opponents shin , because there is not much muscle covering the inside of that area.

Unlike the outside of his leg where you can contact your shin on the more meaty calf muscle area leading to a more softer deflection and possible damage to his calf muscle.

From a physiological stand point it also seems to be a lot easier to effect his structure when deflecting the outside of the leg , now I don't know whether this is down to the strength of the human bodies hip adductors versus the strength of the abductors or if there is something else at play here.

In other words it is a lot easier to turn his body to the side , and as a little added bonus most times it is possible to deflect the kick , turn his body and kick up into his groin from underneath all in the one motion , or deflect and go straight into the side stamp kick to his support leg.

A lot of it depends on how much oomph you want to put into that deflection.
Lately we've been working on wearing a much reinforced groin protector and deflecting and kicking up to the groin in one motion.

kickjam_full.jpg



Just so we're all on the same page here , this is what I'm talking about .
Here he has deflected the attempted front kick or side kick with what we call a hook kick , and then he has followed up the deflection with a side stamping kick.

I practice doing the deflection , then kick straight up to the unprotected groin in one movement and then back down to the side stamping kick.

What are your thoughts on the merits and drawbacks of outside deflections versus inside deflections ?
We do both but as I explained my personal preference is from the outside.

What methods does your lineage employ and what are your personal preferences ?
 

cwk

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deflect then up into the groin and side kick stamp like you already mentioned is probably my favourite.
from the inside- if they kick with their left leg I bring my right leg into my centre ( sometimes with a very small slide step to the left at the same time ,depending on where the kick is coming from) and then swing it in accross the front of my left leg slightly and then back out in an arc like movement with the hips following to keep your structure behind the leg. The aim is to connect with the outside of your heel or blade of the foot with the inside of their thigh or knee. the leg should be fairly loose and heavy so that your leg springs back from contact naturally an inch or so, just enough to line you up for a thrust kick with the heel or ball of foot into the groin or lower abdomen. alternatively, after the origional kick you can just step down and you're on the inside and in range for your hand techniques.
 
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mook jong man

mook jong man

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deflect then up into the groin and side kick stamp like you already mentioned is probably my favourite.
from the inside- if they kick with their left leg I bring my right leg into my centre ( sometimes with a very small slide step to the left at the same time ,depending on where the kick is coming from) and then swing it in accross the front of my left leg slightly and then back out in an arc like movement with the hips following to keep your structure behind the leg. The aim is to connect with the outside of your heel or blade of the foot with the inside of their thigh or knee. the leg should be fairly loose and heavy so that your leg springs back from contact naturally an inch or so, just enough to line you up for a thrust kick with the heel or ball of foot into the groin or lower abdomen. alternatively, after the origional kick you can just step down and you're on the inside and in range for your hand techniques.

Yes I know the one your talking about.

Just while I'm thinking about , what are your thoughts on jamming low Thai round kicks with your heel?
I know its not text book stuff , but I find because I am a short chunky chap with short legs that I find that a lot of the time I am just not in that optimum close range to do a leg deflection on the inside of their thigh and instead it results in a shin clash.

So being rather averse to shin pain I use a stop kick to the groin whilst their kick is still in an early phase or if I pick it up too late I just jam their kicking leg up near their knee area.

I say jam but it is more like a low heel kick attacking their leg , stops the kick dead in its tracks causing potential damage to their leg at the same time , then I step in with a low heel kick from my other leg and take out the support leg .

The purists probably wouldn't like it , but it works well for me and I get less wear and tear on my shins.

Just make sure your partner doing the attacking wears two shin pads on each leg , and tell him to be careful because when his leg gets jammed by your heel up near his knee area his upper leg gets stopped , but his lower leg keeps travelling and can result in a nasty hyper extension of his knee joint.

The only drawback with this is the precision required to target the knee area with your heel , but we are used to targeting knees and shins all the time anyway , so its not that big a deal and I find it quite an instinctive defence for those fast low round kicks.
 

cwk

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MJM, What you just described is exactly the way I usually deal with low leg kicks. I was drilling this a few weeks ago with my partner moving around and throwing high, mid or low Thai style round kicks randomly. I found that this block kick technique works for all three if you get the timing down and just step in a little and aim for the hip of the kicking leg.
 

cwk

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Another way to defend low leg kicks is simply to take a half step back with the leg their targeting and as soon as their kicking leg passes in front of you, do a thrust kick to their hip. if the timings right it'll knock them over or at least make them stumble with their back to you.
This is just an alternative to the block kick for times when they have very long legs or they set it up so you don't see it coming in from outside your range.
I still prefer the block kick though.
 
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mook jong man

mook jong man

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Yeah great minds think alike and all that. :lol:

The way it came about with me is that my student who has long legs , when he does a low Thai round kick he does it somewhat Wing Chun like , in that he will bring his knee across in a very tight arc so that his groin , midsection and hip are pretty well protected by his knee.

On top of that he will step to the side 45 degrees with his support leg so any attempt at using your shin to deflect usually means a clash and your leg being swept to the side from the force of the kick.

But I did notice that halfway through his kicking arc that his knee and shin were almost directly on my centreline and it just seemed rather instinctive to kick that area as it was really the only target available that I could get to without getting my shins smashed or his leg sweeping my attempted deflecting leg out of the way and impacting my support leg.
So it was borne out of necessity really.
 

cwk

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another one I like to do if the kick is to the thigh is this-
if they kick with their right leg, simply step inside of it with your right leg and then turn so that you're facing their standing leg and sweep it. if you time it right,the stepping in and facing action will cause the kick to slide up the side and back of your leg, dissipating most of the force. This should all be done as one smooth movement.
here's the closest thing I could find on Y.T. Obviously you'll need to modify it for wing chun but the concept is the same.

at 1.22
 
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mook jong man

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another one I like to do if the kick is to the thigh is this-
if they kick with their right leg, simply step inside of it with your right leg and then turn so that you're facing their standing leg and sweep it. if you time it right,the stepping in and facing action will cause the kick to slide up the side and back of your leg, dissipating most of the force. This should all be done as one smooth movement.
here's the closest thing I could find on Y.T. Obviously you'll need to modify it for wing chun but the concept is the same.

at 1.22

The thing is the bloke on the you tube clip is throwing them from a side on stance , which makes them slightly more predictable.
When we train we throw them from side on stances and neutral stances so that you have virtually no warning which leg is coming.

You don't really have time to do anything except raise your leg up and kick his kick , another thing that we have been working on is something someone showed me a long time ago called a knee point , I don't know if is from Wing Chun or not.

Basically you just fold your leg up into a strong structure with your knee pointing out and let his shin crash into the point of your knee , probably better to use as a last resort because there might be a bit of pain involved , but better than letting a shin slice into the muscle of your thigh and crippling you .

Its a bit like the leg version of an elbow destruction where you let the opponents fist hit the point of your elbow.
 
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cwk

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I was shown the knee point technique you mention when I trained a mixed fighting style with a Thai navy seal a few years ago. He said it was common in the old Thai martial styles like muay chaiya.
 
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mook jong man

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I was shown the knee point technique you mention when I trained a mixed fighting style with a Thai navy seal a few years ago. He said it was common in the old Thai martial styles like muay chaiya.

Oh right , I was thinking it may have been from Silat or something like that.
Did the navy seal say if he ever had to use it in real situation against a full power kick , and what was the effect it had on the kickers leg and did the navy seal suffer any damage to his knee?

Just from the effect I've seen it have on my student with 2 pairs of shin pads on , I imagine the kicker would possibly end up with a fractured or broken shin bone and the person doing the knee point may suffer a bit of pain but no major damage to his knee.
 

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Oh right , I was thinking it may have been from Silat or something like that.
Did the navy seal say if he ever had to use it in real situation against a full power kick , and what was the effect it had on the kickers leg and did the navy seal suffer any damage to his knee?

Just from the effect I've seen it have on my student with 2 pairs of shin pads on , I imagine the kicker would possibly end up with a fractured or broken shin bone and the person doing the knee point may suffer a bit of pain but no major damage to his knee.

I'd chance a guess that a lot of arts would have a variaton of this technique it's just that the first time I was introduced to it was here in Thailand.
He didn't say if he'd used it or not but I was on the receiving end of it once in training with no protection on my legs and I had a nice blue green bruise for about a week. From that experience I think it would be possible to suffer a fracture this way. It'd probably depend on how hard the kick is and the angle of contact.
 

KamonGuy2

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Never let your opponent get into a range where they can pull off western kicks effectively

If you try and deflect kicks in the way the guy in the photo has, you will get caught out big time. Good karate guys and good kickboxers will outperform you in kicks every time

The best defence is to move into crowded range or move away into a long range. If you get into that intermediate distance you will be slaughtered

There are ways to defelct and absorb kicks (chi gerk) but not in the way shown
 

geezer

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...If you try and deflect kicks in the way the guy in the photo has, you will get caught out big time. Good karate guys and good kickboxers will outperform you in kicks every time

The best defence is to move into crowded range or move away into a long range. If you get into that intermediate distance you will be slaughtered

I agree with what you are saying, but when I look at that picture I see two guys working at close range. The one on the left only appears further away because he is being knocked over backwards. Imagine their distance if he were standing directly over his supporting leg and you'll see what I mean. Of course it's hard to say from a still snapshot.
 
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mook jong man

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I agree with what you are saying, but when I look at that picture I see two guys working at close range. The one on the left only appears further away because he is being knocked over backwards. Imagine their distance if he were standing directly over his supporting leg and you'll see what I mean. Of course it's hard to say from a still snapshot.

I'm pretty familiar with the technique , so I would hazard a guess that the guy in black has been outside of kicking range and then stepped in to kick with either a front kick or side kick

But in either case the aim is to use the shin of your Hook kick to intercept at his calf muscle.
As you raise your Hook kick from the floor to intercept the calf muscle of his leg , you pivot 45 degrees , this action brings the leg rising up in an arc and into the centerline.

The angle of the leg must be maintained prior to contact in order to provide structure , and to increase the coverage of the deflection area.
Once the kick is deflected a stamp kick is typically used.

The technique also has a destabilising effect on the opponents balance as the Hook Kick comes from underneath contacting the opponents leg and raising it up , forcing all their weight backwards and onto the support leg which is getting attacked by the stamp kick and turning them bodily at the same time.

Its used against any kicks coming in straight , like a front kick or side kick.
The harder they come in with the kick , the more their body ends up getting turned.

I suppose you could say it acts a bit like a Pak Sau does against a straight punch , but instead you are parrying the incoming leg with your shin and your force directed at a 45 degree angle upwards.
 

KamonGuy2

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Imagine their distance if he were standing directly over his supporting leg and you'll see what I mean. Of course it's hard to say from a still snapshot.

I did just that and still think they are too far apart (a good kickboxer will know how to take you apart from there. Wing chun will dominate fights from very tight distances with efficient moves, and its no good standing at an intermediate distance unless you train various styles to defend properly from there
 

Touch Of Death

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I have used similar leg deflection techniques close to what you have described in a couple of real fights, and both times, the energy they delivered, in their kicks, went right back into them, and they both landed, on seperate ocassions, right on their heads. I swear by this stuff!
sean
 
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