learning multiple styles

[opr1945]

I am a novice at this (karate, not posting). I am overwhelmed at the details, move this foot 2" in this direction, form hand this way, move leg like this. And for most people it takes year to earn a black belt which is the beginning of learning. Overwhelmed.

Not intended to be critical of another (who I have purposefully not identified), but I come across this: "I have trained long fist, praying mantis, Baji, Taiji, XingYi, White ape, Zimen, WC. "

If done sequentially, each for 5+ years, that is over 40 years and only reaching the starting point and moving on to the next style, a lifetime for many people. A jack of many skills, a master of none.

If done simultaneously, how does one keep them straight? As a novice keeping motions in place is difficult for me. Maybe, it's just me. Others may find this easy to do. After all, we all have different talents.

Thoughts/reactions?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I'll share what an older martial artist told me when I asked this question as a beginner:
"When you were at school, you learned mathematics and English at the same time. You didn't start trying to add letters or spell numbers, did you?"

 

[Senpuu Ryu]

I started with Shotokan (4th Kyu) and now in Goju Ryu (5th Kyu). Learning each style is really tricky especially that both have different thought process on stances, but you will get there eventually. It goes the same thing if you want to add Boxing, Muay Thai or Lethwei. These three will surely not affect you on learning new things or adding things on your martial arts arsenal. But the best thing to do is to at least attain a black belt in Karate before you transition to something else. Don't be a dabbler.

Also, if a person becomes a black belt in Karate in one year as you just mentioned, they are not exactly black belts and has enrolled in a legitimate mcdojo

To become a black belt in karate, a real black belt, is at least 4-5 years.

 

[opr1945]

sorry about the typo.

"And for most people it takes year to earn a black belt ..." I inteneded it to say years.

I did write
"If done sequentially, each for 5+ years, that is over 40 years... "

It is hard to confuse English and Math as they are dissimilar. However, the differences between styles may be small. A closed fist here versus an open hand there. Upright stance in one, lower stance in another. When I was in high scool I took classes in English and Spanish. I became so fond of some Spanish nouns that people caught me using them when I was speaking English. And the verb "es" (pronounced "ace" in english) which means "is" in spanish became part of my regular vocabulary for several years. LOL

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I am a novice at this (karate, not posting). I am overwhelmed at the details, move this foot 2" in this direction, form hand this way, move leg like this. And for most people it takes year to earn a black belt which is the beginning of learning. Overwhelmed.

Not intended to be critical of another (who I have purposefully not identified), but I come across this: "I have trained long fist, praying mantis, Baji, Taiji, XingYi, White ape, Zimen, WC. "

If done sequentially, each for 5+ years, that is over 40 years and only reaching the starting point and moving on to the next style, a lifetime for many people. A jack of many skills, a master of none.

If done simultaneously, how does one keep them straight? As a novice keeping motions in place is difficult for me. Maybe, it's just me. Others may find this easy to do. After all, we all have different talents.

Thoughts/reactions?

Ok first off, basic foundations in CMA lend themselves ( not always ) to each other. Many commonalities exist from one CMA to another. The individual in question is pushing 80 years old. It is certainly possible to get a black belt in more than one style of karate because foundations from one karate style to another will share many similarities.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

sorry about the typo.

"And for most people it takes year to earn a black belt ..." I inteneded it to say years.

I did write
"If done sequentially, each for 5+ years, that is over 40 years... "

It is hard to confuse English and Math as they are dissimilar. However, the differences between styles may be small. A closed fist here versus an open hand there. Upright stance in one, lower stance in another. When I was in high scool I took classes in English and Spanish. I became so fond of some Spanish nouns that people caught me using them when I was speaking English. And the verb "es" (pronounced "ace" in english) which means "is" in spanish became part of my regular vocabulary for several years. LOL

I learned Yang Tai Chi Chuan and Wing Woo Gar Gung fu at the same time, it’s two sides of a coin. Wing Woo Gar is based on integration of the two. Now after almost 30 years of training with 10 of those years spent teaching as well, I also train in Chin na and Shaolin white crane. I will say some things from white crane I don’t use and don’t like, but I can integrate the useful things that fit with my other tools. Chin na is not a style unto itself, rather a useful set of additional tools that nearly anyone can integrate with their main style. I would recommend studying your main art until fluency is achieved, then you can explore how other concepts do or do not fit with how you express yourself in martial arts or movement in general. Best wishes to you in your training.

 

[opr1945]

thanks

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It is hard to confuse English and Math as they are dissimilar. However, the differences between styles may be small. A closed fist here versus an open hand there. Upright stance in one, lower stance in another. When I was in high scool I took classes in English and Spanish. I became so fond of some Spanish nouns that people caught me using them when I was speaking English. And the verb "es" (pronounced "ace" in english) which means "is" in spanish became part of my regular vocabulary for several years. LOL

Language is actually a pretty good metaphor. I'm going to continue with that for my explanation - for the below I'm making an assumption that all the people referenced have roughly the same intelligence level and aptitude.

The first important thing is the age that you started. If we took you (if i remember right you're in your 70s?), me (30s) and a teenager, and had all of us really devote ourselves learning japanese, it would probably take you 5-6 years to become fluent. At my age, it'd probably take me about half that, 2-3 years. A teenager is probably getting fluent in a year. The younger you are, the easier it is to pick things up, adapt, and remember things, ehich holds true for martial arts as well.

The second important thing is that similarities actually help. If I'm learning italian but already learned spanish, I already have a basis for sentence structure, understand a good number of verbs that are similar, and know what methods work/don't work for me to learn further. If my friend starts italian at the same time as me, but never learned a language before its going to be much tougher for him even if I do occasionally accidentally use spanish words and he doesn't. The same holds true for martial arts - the person who already understands the mechanics of striking, memorizing forms, doing drills, and timing will have a much easier time picking up a second striking art then the person who knows none of that. And in MA there's an added benefit that including things from your other martial art occasionally actually helps you, not hinders you.

The last thing is that for languages that are different, you don't have to worry about any mixing them up, but the method you used to learn still sticks around. So if I'm a native english speaker, learned spanish and want to learn japanese, none of my spanish will help me, but I already know how to think in another language, and I know what stuff works/doesn't work for me (ie: personally flashcards help a tiny bit but really I need to read sentences and work backwards to really understand and piece them together, reading paragraphs grammar rules also helps me a lot even though for others it might just confuse them). Which holds true if I know karate but want to learn judo. Karate might not help me directly, but I already have a pathway to learn I can follow.

This is all ignoring that some people genuinely do have more aptitude then others just naturally.

When you combine all that, it explains why there are so many polyglots knowing 5+ languages fluently, while other people struggle learning their second language. And why the same is true for martial arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The following are normal path for MA training.

You pick up a MA system that can

1. build up your "solid foundation".
2. enhance your "speed" training.
3. enhance your "power generation" training.
4. enhance your "throwing skill" training.

That will be 4 MA styles there already.

This MA system is famous in "speed training". You can learn "fast speed punching combo" from it. But can you learn "power generation" from this system?

This MA system is famous in "power generation". Please notice that each and every punch take about 1 second to execute. Can you learn "fast speed punching combo" from this system?

 

[windwalker099]

This MA system is famous in "speed training". You can learn "fast speed punching combo" from it. But can you learn "power generation" from this system?

This MA system is famous in "power generation". Please notice that each and every punch take about 1 second to execute. Can you learn "fast speed punching combo" from this system?

Brenden Lai was one of the Mantis teachers I trained with… Small story:

One day, while going over what we called “1, 2, 3 — grasp, control, punch” (ou lou choy 攞捋操), a typical Northern Mantis sequence, I responded differently.

Because of my Taiji background, instead of controlling directly, I followed the direction of their force and extended it. The result? They lost balance and stumbled trying to recover.

The Northern Mantis system’s theory of power, what it is and how it’s delivered, is fundamentally different from the Chen style’s method. In Chinese martial arts, the theory behind the system is what gives it shape: how it looks, moves, and approaches combat. It defines the skill sets the art is meant to develop.

Mr. Lai came over and said, “No, that’s not right,” and demonstrated on me. His touch was soft and quick — more of a direct, fast control than the kind of guiding I was using.

Good for Mantis.
Not so much for Taiji.

In Taiwan, met teachers who taught Baji with a taiji influence,
Made it softer, interesting approach..

 

[Fungus]

"When you were at school, you learned mathematics and English at the same time. You didn't start trying to add letters or spell numbers, did you?"

It might have helped if my english teacher took som math classses. I well remember that english teachers had trouble to grasp the logical meaning of words such as, and, or and if. And they thought iff or xor was typos

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Because of my Taiji background, instead of controlling directly, I followed the direction of their force and extended it. The result? They lost balance and stumbled trying to recover.

Mr. Lai came over and said, “No, that’s not right,” and demonstrated on me. His touch was soft and quick — more of a direct, fast control than the kind of guiding I was using.

- Taiji is more a wrestling art than a striking art. Fist meets face is the goal.
- Praying mantis is more a striking art than a wrestling art. Off balance your opponent is the goal.

Unless you have trained both, you won't be able to look at the same thing from 2 different angles. In order to have the ability to understand both point of view, cross training is a must.