Leading leg and back arm control

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,319
Reaction score
3,668
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
When your opponent control your leading leg and back arm at the same time, if he moves your leading leg across your body, and also moves your back arm across your body, your body will be put in a situation that you "can't change".

In the normal fighting situation, it's easy to sweep your opponent's leading leg. But it's difficult to control his back arm. Most of the time you will

- push your opponent's leading arm,
- throw a fake punch. This will force your opponent to block with his back arm.
- You can then obtain control on his back arm.

What do you think about this strategy? Your thought?

waist-chop.jpg


 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
28,525
Reaction score
9,487
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I'm usually looking to control one side of his body at the onset (speaking in grappling terms). If I control one arm (and the weight attached to it), I'm not concerned about the opposite leg most of the time. It's simpler to use that one arm to control his weight transfers than to try to cross over and also control the opposite leg. And I'm usually interested in whichever arm is closest to me (though I might set him up to bring the one I want closer, so I can work with it).
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
6,359
Reaction score
1,872
To me, this only works if the attacker is incapable of moving his rear leg. The take-down works because he's way off his center of balance.

If he steps forward with his rear leg when you cut across, his arm is compromised, but his structure remains mostly intact and he is behind you.
 

wab25

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
1,169
Reaction score
1,003
When your opponent control your leading leg and back arm at the same time, if he moves your leading leg across your body, and also moves your back arm across your body, your body will be put in a situation that you "can't change".

In the normal fighting situation, it's easy to sweep your opponent's leading leg. But it's difficult to control his back arm. Most of the time you will

- push your opponent's leading arm,
- throw a fake punch. This will force your opponent to block with his back arm.
- You can then obtain control on his back arm.

What do you think about this strategy? Your thought?
Your pictures and video show two different techniques.

For the foot sweep (in the pictures), you can get the sweep much easier by getting him to take a step back and sweep the foot as he lifts it. Most people I train with, train to move their body as a single unit. If I caught their left arm and moved it, they would move their right foot away from me, to avoid being crossed up. If you add a "push" as they step back, then it presents their left foot for the sweep. But, sure, if they stay nailed to the floor, while you crossed their arm across their body, it would work.

For the Reap (in the video), I agree with Skribs... mostly. If he extends his arm as he steps forward, not only would he be behind you, but his arm would not be compromised. If he steps forward deep enough, placing his knee behind yours, after he extends his arm, he can cross your body and dump you over his knee, putting you into a back fall. Unless, he keeps his feet nailed to the floor and doesn't move them while you cross up his body, then your move would work.
 
OP
Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,319
Reaction score
3,668
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
If he steps forward with his rear leg when you cut across, his arm is compromised, but his structure remains mostly intact and he is behind you.
Some people call this "double weighted (unable to change)".

- 1st, his body has been pushed toward his right. He can't step forward.
- 2nd, you have controlled his left arm with your left hand. His left arm is also jammed between both bodies. Without any free arms, his behind footwork can't do anything.

I'll call this a good "entering strategy". You guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. When you move in, none of his arms can give you any problem.
 
Last edited:

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
28,525
Reaction score
9,487
Location
Hendersonville, NC
- 1st, his body has been pushed toward his right. He can't step forward.
- 2nd, you have controlled his left arm with your left hand. His left arm is also jammed between both bodies. Without any free arms, his behind footwork can't do anything.

Some people call this "double weighted (unable to change)".
Indeed, thats the term I use. For those not familiar with the term, it usually means their weight is evenly distributed across both feet. That makes it impossible to lift a foot without first shifting weight, or lunging.
 

wab25

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
1,169
Reaction score
1,003
- 1st, his body has been pushed toward his right. He can't step forward.
- 2nd, you have controlled his left arm with your left hand. His left arm is also jammed between both bodies. Without any free arms, his behind footwork can't do anything.

Some people call this "double weighted (unable to change)".
Watch the video you posted in the OP, starting at time 0. When the guys left arm is grabbed and pulled across his body, his left leg follows and starts to take the step Skribs is talking about. He has to stop himself, and then refused to move his feet for the rest of the demos. The point is, that the guy being thrown accidentally took the step forward, until he realized he shouldn't... but he still took a step forward.

If you can complete that grab and pull to cross his body before he steps... it will work as described. My experience is that most people will naturally take the step the guy did in the first video. Someone trained, will complete that step and be behind you, on balance and not all crossed up.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
6,359
Reaction score
1,872
Some people call this "double weighted (unable to change)".

- 1st, his body has been pushed toward his right. He can't step forward.
- 2nd, you have controlled his left arm with your left hand. His left arm is also jammed between both bodies. Without any free arms, his behind footwork can't do anything.

I'll call this a good "entering strategy". You guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. When you move in, none of his arms can give you any problem.

His body isn't pushed until the take-down is already in effect. When you're at the point where your arm is being pulled across your body and your leg is trapped, is when I see several areas to change the outcome of this.

If you're talking instead about the point at the very end where he's in the process of falling, then yes I agree there's nothing you can do there. But the specifics don't matter because that applies to any fall.

But because you're talking about controlling the leading leg and back arm, I assumed that is the part of the post you wanted to discuss. And it appears that from the position at 0:34, the other guy can use either foot to escape. Or can simply pull his hand out of the grip. 1-handed wrist grips are really not that secure.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
6,359
Reaction score
1,872
I tried this in my hapkido class yesterday. We found it was hard to get even when the other person was going along with the technique, and there are a lot of natural movements that get out of it.

Now, maybe it's because we haven't been taught it properly or because we haven't practiced it, but it seemed like it only worked if the other person doesn't do anything at all until its too late.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
28,525
Reaction score
9,487
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I tried this in my hapkido class yesterday. We found it was hard to get even when the other person was going along with the technique, and there are a lot of natural movements that get out of it.

Now, maybe it's because we haven't been taught it properly or because we haven't practiced it, but it seemed like it only worked if the other person doesn't do anything at all until its too late.
Next time I have some play time, I'll try to remember to give this a shot and see if I can find an entry to it with any of the controls I use. It feels to me more like a stumble-into-it technique, but I haven't actually tried it yet.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
6,359
Reaction score
1,872
Next time I have some play time, I'll try to remember to give this a shot and see if I can find an entry to it with any of the controls I use. It feels to me more like a stumble-into-it technique, but I haven't actually tried it yet.

I can definitely see that.
 
OP
Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,319
Reaction score
3,668
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I tried this in my hapkido class yesterday. We found it was hard to get even when the other person was going along with the technique, and there are a lot of natural movements that get out of it.
In wrestling art, you may try this:

- Your left hand grab on your opponent's right arm. Your right hand grab on his upper left lapel.
- You move back your right leg, pull him forward.
- When he steps in his left leg, you twist his body to his left, scoop his left foot to his right.

In other words, you set him up for your clinch (body twisting). You then use your "wheeling footwork" (step back your right leg) to force him to step his left leg forward, you then attack that leg.

So to move back your right foot and then move in your right foot is the key.

 
Last edited:
Top