A simple take down strategy

Kung Fu Wang

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After you have controlled your opponent's leading arm, if you pull that leading arm across his body, at the same time if you scoop his back foot (also across his body but in the opposite direction), you can take your opponent down with little effort.

Example:

reverse-arm-hold-palm-push-upper-arm-scoop.gif


The only issue is it's

- easy to control your opponent's leading arm.
- difficult to reach to his back leg.

After you have controlled your opponent's leading arm, you can attack his leading leg. When he steps back, you can then attack his back leg. This make the process into 3 steps:

1. Obtain leading arm control.
2. Attack the leading leg.
3. Attack the back leg.

The step 2 (attack the leading leg) can be interested. What kind of leading leg attack can you do here that can nicely transfer into your back leg attack?

Your thought?
 
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skribs

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If your hand is on top of his arm, chances are he's going to push up against your arm and make it harder to pull his arm down and across like that.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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If your hand is on top of his arm, chances are he's going to push up against your arm and make it harder to pull his arm down and across like that.
This is why some set up will be needed to achieve step 1 - control your opponent's leading arm.

That clip doesn't show any set up.
 
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It seems to me that this strategy is not popular used in most of the MA systems.

Attack your opponent's back leg if you can, otherwise attack his leading leg first, and then attack his back leg afterward.
 

wab25

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It seems to me that this strategy is not popular used in most of the MA systems.

Attack your opponent's back leg if you can, otherwise attack his leading leg first, and then attack his back leg afterward.
Maybe look at Judo?

Judo practices many throwing combinations... many of which are sweeping combinations. I personally like sweeping to throwing combinations. I go for the sweep, if he prevents the sweep, he is set up for a throw... if he steps out of the throw, he is set up for a sweep. But the same goes for sweeping one foot, then the other, then back to the first again...
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Judo practices many throwing combinations... many of which are sweeping combinations. I personally like sweeping to throwing combinations. I go for the sweep, if he prevents the sweep, he is set up for a throw... if he steps out of the throw, he is set up for a sweep. But the same goes for sweeping one foot, then the other, then back to the first again...
That's a good example.

Let's go through all possibilities. Assume both you and your opponent have right leg forward. You can use your

- leading leg to attack the outside,
- leading leg to attack the inside,
- back leg to attack the outside,
- back leg to attack the inside,

of your opponent's leading leg.

You can then use your

- leading leg,
- back leg,

to attack your opponent's back leg.

So there can be 8 possible combo sequence. Some of those 8 combo may not make sense.

This is just one example that we can use computer to do the work.

- Enter all techniques into computer.
- Enter all strategies into computer.
- Compute all possible combinations.
- Remove invalid combo sequence.

Your thought?
 

wab25

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This is just one example that we can use computer to do the work.

- Enter all techniques into computer.
- Enter all strategies into computer.
- Compute all possible combinations.
- Remove invalid combo sequence.

Your thought?
My thought? Why do it the hard way?

- Go to Youtube
- type name of technique
- type a space
- type "combination"
- press enter
- pick the ones you like and practice

If you have two specific techniques, put in both names and the word combination. Lots of stuff already out there... certainly much more than I will ever learn.

I like the saying "don't be afraid of the man that has practiced 10,000 different kicks once each... be very afraid of the man that has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times."

Figure out your favorite few techniques. Practice them a lot. Work on different combinations and set ups for those techniques that you are good at. (always have a few others that you are learning... but know what your goto techniques are)
 

wab25

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It seems to me that this strategy is not popular used in most of the MA systems.

Attack your opponent's back leg if you can, otherwise attack his leading leg first, and then attack his back leg afterward.
The more I thought about this, the more I realized that most martial arts talk about this strategy. They use different techniques and different words, but the strategy is the same. Here is Bill Wallace explaining this strategy in terms of striking:

He says: get the other guy to move... for you. If he is blocking over here, he has an opening over there.

This is a strategy that takes advantage of a principle. The strategy is to get the other guy to react, then use his reaction against him. For Wallace... he kicks high, so the other guy reacts and blocks high, exposing his body which Wallace then kicks. In terms of the take downs... attack the leading leg, so the other guy moves it, then attack the back leg.

So, what is the principle that this strategy relies on? The principle is that every move you make has an opening and every move you make sets you up for the other guy. This is a core principle that every art understands. This principle is why all the arts talk about timing, distance and movement. You need to understand that when you make your move, you will leave an opening... You need to cover that opening by using timing, distance or movement... or any combination of the three... but you need to cover your opening.

The set up part is harder to defend. Everything you do, is a set up for the other guy. Thats how you walk the guy into the knock out punch. This is where you use the principle of initiative. If I have the initiative, that means you are reacting to what I do. I punch, you react by blocking. I shoot for a take down, you sprawl. If you are only thinking "try technique A, try technique B..." then you don't get far. If you understand initiative, you realize that even though he blocked your punch or defended your take down, he is still reacting to you... You can use that to walk him into your technique. This does not mean that you have to be first. If I have a great reversal for your favorite take down... and you see that I left myself wide open for that take down... then you going for that take down is you reacting to me... to the opening I gave you. Now the head games start.

But, all arts talk about this stuff. In boxing you go to the body to open the head. In Judo, you use combination throws and set ups. In wrestling you use chain take downs. In BJJ you use submission chains. Striking arts put together combinations... Its all there in the arts, we just use different techniques as our words.
 

oftheherd1

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If your hand is on top of his arm, chances are he's going to push up against your arm and make it harder to pull his arm down and across like that.

You are correct.

But if you look closely you can see the defender's right art coming from somewhere we can't see, and first pushing the arm outward. At that point the attacker's reaction will normally be to push inward. Then the defender only needs to pull inward inward and control the foot as he pushes the attacker's body. There are of course many things that either person can do and should be prepared for to be successful. Such things can be argued and all arguments can be equally valid, such as the one you mentioned. A defender should be prepared an eventuality you mentioned and change the defense to another grapple or a disengagement .

I am sure @Kung Fu Wang and others can think of many ways to conclude the shown beginning defense. One I like because it is oo powerful, is what in the Hapkido I learned, we called the Heel Down Kick. Properly done, anywhere it strikes on the chest should cause much damage, perhaps even death. Since the attacker at that point will be trying to use a proper break fall.

But if he is able, a good defense is a cross arm block will not only protect him, it may damage the leg of the person of the person doing the heel down kick. It is also a block we use as a defense against a front snap kick. Front snap kicks properly done can be powerful. That block properly done absorbs enough of the kick, and strikes bone and or muscle.

@skribs I am going to guess you have learned that block already or that it is at least your schedule.
 

skribs

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I am sure @Kung Fu Wang and others can think of many ways to conclude the shown beginning defense. One I like because it is oo powerful, is what in the Hapkido I learned, we called the Heel Down Kick. Properly done, anywhere it strikes on the chest should cause much damage, perhaps even death. Since the attacker at that point will be trying to use a proper break fall.

But if he is able, a good defense is a cross arm block will not only protect him, it may damage the leg of the person of the person doing the heel down kick. It is also a block we use as a defense against a front snap kick. Front snap kicks properly done can be powerful. That block properly done absorbs enough of the kick, and strikes bone and or muscle.

Uh...what? I take exception with just about everything said here.

  1. Are you saying you do a take-down and then while they're falling you do an ax kick? That seems like a really small window with which to execute the kick. This seems more like something I'd expect in Dragonball Z than in a martial arts class. Doing an ax kick after they've fallen makes sense, but it's done after the breakfall is over.
  2. I first have to ask if "cross arm block" means you cross your arms and use the intersection to block, or if your arm is crossing your body.
  3. Whichever answer you have for #2, I don't see it as likely you're going to be able to use a block while you're falling down. If the person is capable of fitting a kick into that window, you probably won't see it coming (because you're look at the sky), and you probably won't be fast enough to stop that kick. I also don't see how a block (especially done while you're mid-fall) would damage the leg during an ax kick, especially if it's the first definition I provided for a cross block.
  4. If you're talking about the first definition of the cross block, I don't see how you would have enough power to strike the leg with it (and I can't really see it striking muscle). If you're talking about the second, I can see it striking muscle, but not bone. Legs are stronger than arms. I wouldn't want to block a kick without either going off of it's direction of power (i.e. a parry) or targeting the upper thigh (which is way too strong for a block to do much striking).
@skribs I am going to guess you have learned that block already or that it is at least your schedule.

Our first line of defense against a kick is our footwork. It's a lot better to not have our body in the way of a foot or shinbone as it's coming at us. After that, the block isn't too important, it's grabbing the leg so we can control it that's important. Just to block a kick and meet shin with forearm is a recipe to get your arm broken. I almost had it happen once or twice in TKD sparring when I blocked a kick instead of avoiding it.

We also don't practice for blocking kicks in the middle of a breakfall, because I don't see it as very likely someone is going to be able to execute a kick before I've hit the ground.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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If your hand is on top of his arm, chances are he's going to push up against your arm and make it harder to pull his arm down and across like that.
In wrestling, you want your

- arm to be "inside" of your opponent's arm, and
- hand to be "on top" of your opponent's arm.

Inside and on top is the key. When you put both hands on top of your opponent's elbow joints, that's called "mantis arms". At that moment, you have control over your opponent's arms.

1. On top - you will have gravity advantage.
2. Inside - you can push your opponent's arms away from your body.

Mantis arms:

mantis-arm-1.gif
 
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oftheherd1

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Uh...what? I take exception with just about everything said here.

I have noticed that. Nothing wrong with that. I sometimes do it myself. That is how the one who says something and the one who questions if, learn if they stay open minded.

  1. Are you saying you do a take-down and then while they're falling you do an ax kick? That seems like a really small window with which to execute the kick. This seems more like something I'd expect in Dragonball Z than in a martial arts class. Doing an ax kick after they've fallen makes sense, but it's done after the breakfall is over.
  2. I first have to ask if "cross arm block" means you cross your arms and use the intersection to block, or if your arm is crossing your body.
  3. Whichever answer you have for #2, I don't see it as likely you're going to be able to use a block while you're falling down. If the person is capable of fitting a kick into that window, you probably won't see it coming (because you're look at the sky), and you probably won't be fast enough to stop that kick. I also don't see how a block (especially done while you're mid-fall) would damage the leg during an ax kick, especially if it's the first definition I provided for a cross block.
  4. If you're talking about the first definition of the cross block, I don't see how you would have enough power to strike the leg with it (and I can't really see it striking muscle). If you're talking about the second, I can see it striking muscle, but not bone. Legs are stronger than arms. I wouldn't want to block a kick without either going off of it's direction of power (i.e. a parry) or targeting the upper thigh (which is way too strong for a block to do much striking).


Our first line of defense against a kick is our footwork. It's a lot better to not have our body in the way of a foot or shinbone as it's coming at us. After that, the block isn't too important, it's grabbing the leg so we can control it that's important. Just to block a kick and meet shin with forearm is a recipe to get your arm broken. I almost had it happen once or twice in TKD sparring when I blocked a kick instead of avoiding it.

We also don't practice for blocking kicks in the middle of a breakfall, because I don't see it as very likely someone is going to be able to execute a kick before I've hit the ground.

1. In general I don't think it matters what causes them to be going down backwards. They will at least be partially distracted with a backwards fall/breakfall.
I am totally unfamiliar with Dragonball Z. Are you belted in that? Can you send some videos of you practicing that? What is your school's master's lineage in that art? But I congratulate you; it is always good in today's world to learn more that one art.

2. (a) I probably should have said crossed arms block. It is done by crossing the arms at the wrists and striking forward. Sorry, better demonstrated than described. An upward block from the bottom is more tricky to strike at a good point with a heel down kick due to there being more power.
(b) I don't know how you do a heel down kick. In the Hapkido I learned the trail foot is stepped forward while swinging it across the body, up level with the kicker's head to a vertical position, and straight down as you drop into a squat. That develops a lot of power.
(c) Properly done you will have anticipated/recognized your opponent's fall and begun the heel down kick while he is falling.

3. (a) I did say if the person falling is able, because you are correct in that point. Also the speed and of the fall and the point of contact of body parts if your break fall is not good. True, the person falling may not be fast enough to block.j
(b) I wouldn't expect the block to occur while falling, but if the falling person is good enough, who knows. One more reason we Hapkidoin don't like to be on the ground.
(c) Looking at the sky (at least if you are keeping your head off the ground) is what would be expected, and would be the area from which you would expect to see a heel down kick coming from.

4. I don't think anyone would wish to block kicks as opposed to deflecting them. Remember that what I described was first a block, but done in such a way as to also be a strike. Also, don't misunderstand that I think blocking the heel down kick as I described would be a favorite defense. But it would be better than being hit with a powerful heel down kick.
 

skribs

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@oftheherd1

1) Dragonball Z is an over-the-top anime, where people use ki energy to fly around and shoot energy attacks at each other. One of the things they do a lot in that show is uppercut someone hundreds of feet in the air, and then jump higher than them and do a hammerfist or ax kick to send them flying back down (and usually make a hundred-foot crater in the Earth). In other words, the technique you're describing would only work in cartoons, as far as I see it.

2) (a) I'm having a hard time seeing how you can get striking power into that block, compared to other blocks. Every version of that block I've learned has very little striking power. It's a strong barrier, and a good base to grab them from, but I just can't see it doing damage against a strike.
(b) Are you talking about a stomp on a downed opponent, or a kick you'd use while they're standing up? If it's a stomp, I don't see how you're going to absorb that with a cross block.
(c) Is your opponent spontaneously falling, or are you making him fall? If he's spontaneously falling, then yes you could time this. If you're making him fall, you either need a strong base with which to make him fall, or you need to use a sweep. Either way, transitioning from one of those into an ax kick during the fall is going to be quite a feat. You may be able to do it at half-speed in class, but I can't imagine doing this full speed. Unless you're training for your opponent to trip themselves and you react right away.

4) If you're striking in the direction the kick is coming from, you're meeting strength with strength. If someone is putting all their weight onto your arm like that, they're going to break something. It would be better than taking the stomp, but only barely. And you're in a bad place for their next stomp.
 

oftheherd1

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1) Dragonball Z is an over-the-top anime, where people use ki energy to fly around and shoot energy attacks at each other. One of the things they do a lot in that show is uppercut someone hundreds of feet in the air, and then jump higher than them and do a hammerfist or ax kick to send them flying back down (and usually make a hundred-foot crater in the Earth). In other words, the technique you're describing would only work in cartoons, as far as I see it.

Thanks. I knew it had to be a game or something like that. Anime didn't cross my mind, but I don't really pay any attention to either. I'll ask my grandson when I see him and I am sure he can tell me much about it.

2) (a) I'm having a hard time seeing how you can get striking power into that block, compared to other blocks. Every version of that block I've learned has very little striking power. It's a strong barrier, and a good base to grab them from, but I just can't see it doing damage against a strike.
(b) Are you talking about a stomp on a downed opponent, or a kick you'd use while they're standing up? If it's a stomp, I don't see how you're going to absorb that with a cross block.

You have two crossed arms projecting power and absorbing your opponent's power. Some physical fitness helps of course. Ki may help but I doubt you will project your opponent into a crater and kick him out of it. But like a lot of things in MA, practice and belief in your ability will help improve your ability.

(c) Is your opponent spontaneously falling, or are you making him fall? If he's spontaneously falling, then yes you could time this. If you're making him fall, you either need a strong base with which to make him fall, or you need to use a sweep. Either way, transitioning from one of those into an ax kick during the fall is going to be quite a feat. You may be able to do it at half-speed in class, but I can't imagine doing this full speed. Unless you're training for your opponent to trip themselves and you react right away.

No doubt best done when you cause your opponent to fall, so you can take advantage of the timing of his fall. If the opponent is falling because of his own loss of balance, who knows where he will land or how. But as it will be more difficult to project yourself into his fall, it will be more difficult for him to block anything. Can you ensure if he just falls that you will still be able to heel kick him let alone effectively? Can you be sure of that for strike or kick every tiime?

4) If you're striking in the direction the kick is coming from, you're meeting strength with strength. If someone is putting all their weight onto your arm like that, they're going to break something. It would be better than taking the stomp, but only barely. And you're in a bad place for their next stomp.

As mentioned above, the crossed arms will absorb a lot of energy. What happens when the immovable object is struck by the unstoppable force? Which will the heel kick be? which will the block be? Will they ever change which they will be? Would you rather at least try to block a heel kick?

And come to think of it, what makes you think there will be more than one kick? Is this Ameri-Do-Te? ;)
 

skribs

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Thanks. I knew it had to be a game or something like that. Anime didn't cross my mind, but I don't really pay any attention to either. I'll ask my grandson when I see him and I am sure he can tell me much about it.

You have two crossed arms projecting power and absorbing your opponent's power. Some physical fitness helps of course. Ki may help but I doubt you will project your opponent into a crater and kick him out of it. But like a lot of things in MA, practice and belief in you ability will help improve your ability.

Now I'm starting to wonder about your touch with reality.

No doubt best done when you cause your opponent to fall, so you can take advantage of the timing of his fall. If the opponent is falling because of his own loss of balance, who knows where he will land or how. But as it will be more difficult to project yourself into his fall, it will be more difficult for him to block anything. Can you ensure if he just falls that you will still be able to heel kick him let alone effectively? Can you be sure of that for strike or kick every tiime?

Then going back to what I said - if you're making them fall, you're using your legs. Transitioning from those to a downward kick during the course of that fall is an incredibly unrealistic feat to achieve.

As mentioned above, the crossed arms will absorb a lot of energy. What happens when the immovable object is struck by the unstoppable force? Which will the heel kick be? which will the block be? Will they ever change which they will be? Would you rather at least try to block a heel kick?

And come to think of it, what makes you think there will be more than one kick? Is this Ameri-Do-Te? ;)

Do you think kicks only come in one? The only way I could see only doing 1 kick is if this is a point match and you scored a point. In any fight that goes until a KO or TKO, there's going to be more than one kick. Or if there isn't, they'll follow up with some ground and pound or another technique. And it's going to be a lot harder to defend with a broken arm.
 

oftheherd1

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Now I'm starting to wonder about your touch with reality.

Must be my slow day. Can you explain why you would doubt my touch with reality?

Then going back to what I said - if you're making them fall, you're using your legs. Transitioning from those to a downward kick during the course of that fall is an incredibly unrealistic feat to achieve.

Again, could you explain what you mean? If I am standing I am using my legs. If I move my rear leg forward and across and up and down, I am using my legs. If I do that I pretty much have done the movements for a heel down kick against an opponent I have put on the ground, whether by tripping him, trapping and raising a kick of his to the point he falls over backwards, or use some grapple against an arm, leg, or what ever. I don't need to corkscrew my own arms or legs to do that.

Do you think kicks only come in one? The only way I could see only doing 1 kick is if this is a point match and you scored a point. In any fight that goes until a KO or TKO, there's going to be more than one kick. Or if there isn't, they'll follow up with some ground and pound or another technique. And it's going to be a lot harder to defend with a broken arm.

Putting aside that I was taught to put maximum power into any block, strike, or kick, a heel down kick isn't one that you can just keep doing one after another like a snap kick or side kick.
 

skribs

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Again, could you explain what you mean? If I am standing I am using my legs. If I move my rear leg forward and across and up and down, I am using my legs. If I do that I pretty much have done the movements for a heel down kick against an opponent I have put on the ground, whether by tripping him, trapping and raising a kick of his to the point he falls over backwards, or use some grapple against an arm, leg, or what ever. I don't need to corkscrew my own arms or legs to do that.

Exactly. You are using your legs. Your legs are occupied to make the take-down happen. You have to transition from making the take-down happen, move your leg up and over them, and then back down - all during the time they are falling.

This sounds like something that would only work if they're falling in slow motion.

Putting aside that I was taught to put maximum power into any block, strike, or kick, a heel down kick isn't one that you can just keep doing one after another like a snap kick or side kick.

This is the answer to your question "how am I out of touch with reality?" The idea that you block one kick and they're too tired to throw another? I think that might be one of the most ludicrous things I've heard on this forum. I don't even know where to begin on dissecting that one.
 

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