Language Discussion, Proper Use of Honorifics

[Kreth]

For the individual who decided to hit my reputation for my comments earlier in this thread, with the comment "Hatsumi SAMA???? You make the Bujinkan look like a cult", I can assure you that such was not my intent. My understanding is that the addition of "-sama" was a formal show of respect usually used for a respected senior. If I am wrong, please correct me, preferably in a respectful manner. The fact that the one who commented did so anonymous indicated that ones own cowardice, I think.

Cap,
I'm far from a Japanese expert, but I don't see -sama used very often. IIRC, it's kind of an archaic and extremely formal usage. But if someone knows better, feel free to correct me. Oh, and I wasn't the one who dinged you. I typically sign mine, good or bad...

Jeff

 

[Captain Harlock]

Ah, Thank you. As you can tell, I am an anime fan, so have picked up my limited understanding of the language by that media. As Dr. Hatsumi is not my instructor, but is someone I do respect for his contributions, I thought the form of address appropriate.

I have been "dinged" again, by yet another, or the same coward. Please, if you are do so, at least have the honor to identify yourself.

Peace.

 

[Don Roley]

As you can tell, I am an anime fan, so have picked up my limited understanding of the language by that media.

Don't try to learn Japanese from anime unless it is a modern day story about normal people. "-Sama" is never used in modern day Japanese outside of some extreme cases with the exception of some pretty weird folks. "Sensei" is appropriate, but not needed in an English language forum. "San" and such is usually not used with people you have never met.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Y'know Don, thats gonna really be a problem for me...trying to flush 7 years of Sailor Moon from my mind...not that I haven't already tried.

(long story, short version - ex GF was a rabid fangirl, thought she was Sailor Moon, etc....I still have nightmares.)

 

[RRouuselot]

Don't try to learn Japanese from anime unless it is a modern day story about normal people. "-Sama" is never used in modern day Japanese outside of some extreme cases with the exception of some pretty weird folks. "Sensei" is appropriate, but not needed in an English language forum. "San" and such is usually not used with people you have never met.

Hey,

My wife calls me “Tono-sama” (Your Lordship ) or was it ……"sodaigomi" (giant trash dump)???

 

[Don Roley]

(long story, short version - ex GF was a rabid fangirl, thought she was Sailor Moon, etc....I still have nightmares.)

I am both repulsed and strangely excited by that idea. :fanboy:

Seriously, has anyone ever noticed one of the people that can speak great Japanese using a Japanese word when an English one will do just as well? It just looks silly to me when people try to impress others by throwing in a word or two of Japanese. And I would expect that the other moderators might get nervous about someone trying to slip something dirty in. I still remember the Nigiri pe incident that Sojobow fell for hook line and sinker. I would appreciate it if everyone used English as much as possible.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Don, check yer PMs.

As for the language....I agree with you, though I do it myself at times. I want to learn, but have no one local to practice with, so as I pick up little bits I'll toss them in and hope I'm close. Mostly, I do the 'learn by anime' bit, but most subtitling is, well, crap. I just watched Yamato and they kept calling the fighters 'battleships', etc. I'll have to break down, buy some tapes, talk to myself for a bit, then start finding folks to practice with regularly. (I'm also way behind on latin, german and klingon...that later of which will eventually cost my my geek licence y'know. )

 

[Captain Harlock]

Don't try to learn Japanese from anime unless it is a modern day story about normal people.

Does such a thing exist?

"-Sama" is never used in modern day Japanese outside of some extreme cases with the exception of some pretty weird folks.

I sense you are not refering to American Anime Fans here. I stand corrected.

"Sensei" is appropriate, but not needed in an English language forum. "San" and such is usually not used with people you have never met.

I have heard/seen "-sama", "-san" (male) and "-chan" (female) used, with -chan seeming the most common. I would assume it also falls under the same rule as -san.

Thank you for the information.

 

[RRouuselot]

I believe this troll also again hit my reputation, again failing to sign his cowardly name.

"sounds like your bucking to be a mod! keep it up!"

I feel for this tortured soul, so empty that he must lash out at those around him.

Do you expect him to have the "stones" to sign his negative "ding"?
I sure don't. He never signs the ones he give me either.....doesn't take much to figure out who it is either....anyway, keep up the good posts.

 

[Kizaru]

I have heard/seen "-sama", "-san" (male) and "-chan" (female) used, with -chan seeming the most common. I would assume it also falls under the same rule as -san.

Actually, "-chan" doesn't fall under the same rules as "-san".

"-san" is a general term of respect, used with someone you don't know.

"-chan" is used for a female that you are close to, for example a girlfriend or sister, but not your mother-in-law. "-chan" could also be used when talking to a girl much younger than you, for example, an Elementary school student. It's sort of like how we tack a "y" onto the end of girl's names in English (Samantha -> Sammy, Allison -> Ally etc) If one were to call a female business associate "Tanaka-chan" or "Kaori-chan" that could be construed as disrespectful.

Sometimes "-chan" is used with men as well. Usually it's tacked onto a nickname that only those in the "in group" use. For example, I worked with a guy with the last name "Iwase". The character "Iwa" means "Rock" and can also be read "Gan", this guy was of the short, stocky Judo enthusiast type so we used to call him "Gan-chan" , so I guess the translation would be something like "Rocky" or "Rocko". I've heard the Japanese shihan refer to each other as "Te-chan" and "Ken-chan".
:asian:

 

[Kizaru]

Don't try to learn Japanese from anime unless it is a modern day story about normal people. "-Sama" is never used in modern day Japanese outside of some extreme cases with the exception of some pretty weird folks....

Roley-sensei, Shitsurei itashimasu....I politely disagree.

When sending a letter, postcard or New Year's card, I believe it is customary to write "-sama" on the name in the address. In the Japanese business world, when sending an email to a customer or business associate older than you, it is customary to write "-sama" after their name. When calling a customer or someone at another company "up higher than you" on the telephone, and someone else at the company picks up the phone (very few individual offices at Japanese companies) it's customary to tack on "-sama" to their name when asking for them. Also, when using "Sonkeigo" (respectful language) during business negotations "-sama" is often used when talking to customers, people older than you, people you should respect etc. etc.

I'll agree with you that it's heard more often in "Samurai" movies, and if you were to use it in everyday conversation, you'd sound strange. But saying it's limited to "weird people" and "extreme situations" I think is kind of misleading. While Japanese businessmen (or businessmen of any race) can be weird at times, I wouldn't say that doing business or negotiation is an "extreme situation".

Gokuro Sama Desu....:asian::asian:

:asian::asian::asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

Well. I have a set of Learn Japanese Pc disks...

So far I can say Beer, Wine, Asprin, Hospital, and Water.

Nothing about Sama.

:idunno:

 

[Don Roley]

Kizaru,
Note the social situations you mentioned and the relationships of "in-group" vs "outside the group" for when to use keigo (formal polite language.)

What is appropriate in one situation is not in another. This is what makes keigo sucha pain to learn.

 

[Don Roley]

Does such a thing exist?

Anime about normal people in normal situations? Yep. Heck, even Capricious Orange Road is fairly normal until it gets weird, and you can always tell when things get weird with that story. You just have to follow the situation and realize when things change. In Bubblegum Crisis and such, you can here them talking with other people in a variety of situations that would be termed normal. But the terms they use when battling monsters probably should not be used around polite company. Just think about it instead of parroting what you hear.

 

[davidg553]

Don, check yer PMs.

As for the language....I agree with you, though I do it myself at times. I want to learn, but have no one local to practice with... )

There is a Japanese language group for Buffalo on www.meetup.com although there doesn't seem to be much activity on it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Don, "fairly normal until it gets weird" sums up my life. Great, I'm an anime character. Why can't I be one with superpowers?

David, Thanks! I'll give it an look. Buffalo seems to be more SE-Asian than Japanese. (I think our asian population last census was under 2,000 out of 800,000 or so.)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

We should also probably split this language tangent off of the sword bit.

 

[jibran]

Is the Japanese software any good; if so, which one is it?
Thanks,
Jibran

 

[Cryozombie]

Is the Japanese software any good; if so, which one is it?
Thanks,
Jibran

Jibran,

It was given to me for Xmas last year, I have not used it much. The teaching method in it seems pretty straight-forward and easy to follow... with a few learning games built in. I cant really sya how good it is, hwoever as I have never really used it seriously.

It's called "Japan Now" i believe