Kyokushin plus boxing cross training would this be a good base for getting into kickboxing comp?

drop bear

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Old post, guy's gone etc. But anyway...

Does anyone really think that is the actual intention of kata - that it's a scripted response to a fight situation?

Ian Abernathy?
 

dvcochran

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Old post, guy's gone etc. But anyway...

Does anyone really think that is the actual intention of kata - that it's a scripted response to a fight situation?
I think many were originally intended to be that way. At least I hope so. There are many newer (to me) forms that have lost some of the purely self defense purpose however.
 

gpseymour

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Ian Abernathy?
I haven't watched a bunch of Iain Abernethy's stuff, so it's possible I've missed it, but I've not seen him refer to kata as a script for a given situation. He seems, instead, to take combinations and look for sequences in kata that can be used to examine parts (or even the whole combination).
 

gpseymour

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I think many were originally intended to be that way. At least I hope so. There are many newer (to me) forms that have lost some of the purely self defense purpose however.
You think they were intended to be a specific script that could be followed, as opposed to a way to practice combinations?
 

drop bear

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I haven't watched a bunch of Iain Abernethy's stuff, so it's possible I've missed it, but I've not seen him refer to kata as a script for a given situation. He seems, instead, to take combinations and look for sequences in kata that can be used to examine parts (or even the whole combination).

Tries to shoe horn Kata in to practical application.
 

gpseymour

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Tries to shoe horn Kata in to practical application.
I don't see that as the same thing as it being a script. I agree he puts a lot of effort into finding practical application in it. I don't think it's necessary - kata is fine as just a method of practicing movement. That said, I don't really see an issue with folks who enjoy and find value in the intellectual pursuit of working with kata that way.
 

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You think they were intended to be a specific script that could be followed, as opposed to a way to practice combinations?
I don't really see a difference, other than forms are usually longer than individual move or combination sequences.
I see it as part of the repetition component. People are generally going to respond with what they practice. Hopefully what they practice is sound SD, whatever format they train in. I think I do find myself stressing what a persons mindset is when practicing forms. You cannot only practice the How or you will only learn a sequence of moves chained together. Dangerously close to a dance. A person must focus on the Why. That is how a form has a Martial component and how a person translates the moves into a SD tool.
 

drop bear

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I don't see that as the same thing as it being a script. I agree he puts a lot of effort into finding practical application in it. I don't think it's necessary - kata is fine as just a method of practicing movement. That said, I don't really see an issue with folks who enjoy and find value in the intellectual pursuit of working with kata that way.

It just isn't practical as you are using the wrong basis for your scientific method.

So you start by observing that Kata works. And then you try to apply it to a fight.

Rather than observing what works in a fight and changing the Kata.,
 

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I don't really see a difference, other than forms are usually longer than individual move or combination sequences.
I see it as part of the repetition component. People are generally going to respond with what they practice. Hopefully what they practice is sound SD, whatever format they train in. I think I do find myself stressing what a persons mindset is when practicing forms. You cannot only practice the How or you will only learn a sequence of moves chained together. Dangerously close to a dance. A person must focus on the Why. That is how a form has a Martial component and how a person translates the moves into a SD tool.
Okay, let me see if I can explain the difference, as I see it. A combination is a set of moves that can be chained together. A script is how something will happen. So, I can practice jab-cross-hook or jab-slip-close or jab-jab-clinch. Any of those are things that could potentially be used as openings present. A script assumes specific progression, and predicts how things will go, and says "I am the answer if things start this way". So, if someone throws a right haymaker, I'll be able to block it, pass it to my right, step in and apply downward force to shift the shoulders back, step hip-to-hip, and sweep. If we call that a script, we're saying that's how it will go. If we say that is a combo, we're saying that's a chain of movements that flows. It's semantics, but important semantics, because one of the complaints people lodge about some forms is that they present solutions that aren't likely to get to continue the way they are shown, because the other guy won't follow your script. So, if we say those things are scripts, then we have to acknowledge that argument is accurate - the other guy won't follow the script most of the time. But if they're just a way to practice movements that can chain together, then we're not stuck in a script.

It's only different in perspective. I kind of agree with you, except I've had these discussions often enough that I know what folks mean when they call it a script.
 

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It just isn't practical as you are using the wrong basis for your scientific method.

So you start by observing that Kata works. And then you try to apply it to a fight.

Rather than observing what works in a fight and changing the Kata.,
I think he actually finds a move he likes (something he finds works for him) and then looks for it in kata. Again, that's based on a limited viewing of his work.
 

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Okay, let me see if I can explain the difference, as I see it. A combination is a set of moves that can be chained together. A script is how something will happen. So, I can practice jab-cross-hook or jab-slip-close or jab-jab-clinch. Any of those are things that could potentially be used as openings present. A script assumes specific progression, and predicts how things will go, and says "I am the answer if things start this way". So, if someone throws a right haymaker, I'll be able to block it, pass it to my right, step in and apply downward force to shift the shoulders back, step hip-to-hip, and sweep. If we call that a script, we're saying that's how it will go. If we say that is a combo, we're saying that's a chain of movements that flows. It's semantics, but important semantics, because one of the complaints people lodge about some forms is that they present solutions that aren't likely to get to continue the way they are shown, because the other guy won't follow your script. So, if we say those things are scripts, then we have to acknowledge that argument is accurate - the other guy won't follow the script most of the time. But if they're just a way to practice movements that can chain together, then we're not stuck in a script.

It's only different in perspective. I kind of agree with you, except I've had these discussions often enough that I know what folks mean when they call it a script.
In that definition of a script, I fully agree. One reason I feel forms get a bad rap from some people is when they are the primary learning tool and they are not at all or poorly translated to real world scenarios. I see them as a tool, but as a compliment to sparring and practicing technique and one/two/three steps with power, speed, and variety. I do think they should give a person a greater choice, a wider set of skills and therefore more options to choose from for a given attack. That obviously would not be scripted, but in the vein of repetition, I am sure some would argue that the average class is largely scripted.
 

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In that definition of a script, I fully agree. One reason I feel forms get a bad rap from some people is when they are the primary learning tool and they are not at all or poorly translated to real world scenarios. I see them as a tool, but as a compliment to sparring and practicing technique and one/two/three steps with power, speed, and variety. I do think they should give a person a greater choice, a wider set of skills and therefore more options to choose from for a given attack. That obviously would not be scripted, but in the vein of repetition, I am sure some would argue that the average class is largely scripted.
My personal view of forms is that they have a range of uses, and not all forms (maybe none?) fit all those uses. Some are closer to likely application, while some are more stylized. Some contain more likely combinations (and therefor transitions), while others are focused on getting in as many techniques as possible.

All the ones I've seen (if they go beyond single step or two) are good for practicing smoothing transitions between movements. All seem to be good for working balance and muscle control. Most are good for visualizing working with an actual person. Many are good for examining the relationships between techniques by the transitions that link them. Most are good for working up a sweat, warming up for some serious work. Most are good for a moving meditation, once you get past the "what comes next?" stage.
 

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There we go :D

It could be reasoned that responding to a punch by using "parry, cross" could be considered using moves 16 and 17 from "X" kata from such and such art. That could be considered finding application.

What wouldn't work is launching into a 30 move kata and expecting it to all fit...

The latter is what the post I initially quoted appeared to suggest.


And unfortunately, I got an in-person answer the other day. A couple of teenagers in class asked me about a section of a pattern where there's a 180 turn - "why are you turning away from the person you're fighting?"

After attempting to go through various explanations about how it's not a full script for a real fight the only answer they'd accept was "you've finished dealing with that person and now you turn to get the next one".
 

drop bear

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There we go :D

It could be reasoned that responding to a punch by using "parry, cross" could be considered using moves 16 and 17 from "X" kata from such and such art. That could be considered finding application.

What wouldn't work is launching into a 30 move kata and expecting it to all fit...

The latter is what the post I initially quoted appeared to suggest.


And unfortunately, I got an in-person answer the other day. A couple of teenagers in class asked me about a section of a pattern where there's a 180 turn - "why are you turning away from the person you're fighting?"

After attempting to go through various explanations about how it's not a full script for a real fight the only answer they'd accept was "you've finished dealing with that person and now you turn to get the next one".

And even then you would skip around the first person and 180 rather than give your back.

My guess is mechanically, you would quite simply run out of room if you didn't put the turns in there.

 
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gpseymour

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And even then you would skip around the first person and 180 rather than give your back.

My guess is mechanically, you would quite simply run out of room if you didn't put the turns in there.

Absolutely. When I first created the forms I teach, I had to go back and change some turns and directions, because they took up enormous amounts of space. Seriously, only one person at a time could do them, unless you were in an empty warehouse.
 

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And even then you would skip around the first person and 180 rather than give your back.

My guess is mechanically, you would quite simply run out of room if you didn't put the turns in there.

Certainly possible.

You could also take it in isolation (just the turn part) and say you might be responding to something behind.

Or, that the turns are there to help develop balance and control.


There are 270 and 360 turns/spins/jumps in some too - I can't think of many practical applications for those (over flash and body control).
 

JR 137

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My former teacher taught the turns (particularly the 90 degree and 180 turns) as bringing/forcing your opponent that direction. Take Taikyoku 1 and Pinan 1 for example: in the beginning there’s a 90 turn to the left with a simultaneous “low block” and a 180 turn with the same block. If the block is used as an arm bar (chambering hand holding the wrist and blocking forearm across the tricep), the 90 degree turn to the right would break the arm and throw the opponent pretty good. The step through and punch on the next count would add insult to injury. Same arm bar, step straight back and pivot 180 degrees such as the turn in the kata does the same thing, only more so.

Think about how you’re supposed to turn 180 degrees; it’s not a regular quick turn. It’s the front foot reaching back, turn your head, then basically twist your torso. I’ve heard many teachers say your belt ends should swing from your momentum. If you do it that way, the mechanics of your turn generate quite a bit of power to really force your opponent in that direction pretty easily when you’ve got their elbow locked as I described earlier. And if you step back pretty far/deeply before the turn, it generates more momentum. Hence teachers stressing deep stances. The 90 degree turn is specific in footwork too and not just a “face that way” thing.

I wish I had some video to show it.
 

JR 137

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Something along the lines of what I was talking about, but you’ve got to use your imagination a bit here. The video kinda shows what I’m getting at, but not really. I don’t like the setup. Picture a hard arm grab by the attacker. Grab the wrist and turn it over while doing the “low block” to where she’s doing it on the attacker. Keep the trapped wrist and keep your blocking arm on their arm. Only instead of going straight forward, your front foot goes straight back, and you twist your torso and bring your “blocking arm” down while it’s still right behind their elbow.

That strong and deep step back and twist will send him flying. And break his arm. I haven’t done it full force, but I’ve practiced it under some pretty good resistance. It’s worked. The tricky part is the initial turning over of the opponent’s grabbing arm.


Edit: She’s grabbing the wrong arm in that video too. If the opponent’s right hand grabs, you trap that hand with your left, and use your right arm across their tricep. Damn I wish there was something better I could find.
 

JR 137

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Even better regarding the turns...

Watch the video at about 2:35 when he applies the inside-out block as an arm lock. He starts turning with it. Now picture the typical 180 kata turn - foot goes straight back as the block is set, forceful twist of the torso while the block is being done. Block and turn stop at the same time. Belt ends swing from the force generated by the turn.

Now those stupid turns make sense. You’re not turning to face someone attacking you; you’re turning so you can send your attacker in that direction.

The I agree with practically everything in the video. IMO it’s a great video, even if Jesse’s personality and squirrellyness annoys the sh!t out of me.

 
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