Kwon & Kwan

[IcemanSK]

This is the kind of thing that keeps me up nights....Honestly.

Why, what, how, etc is the difference in Kwon (meaning, "fist" as in Tae Kwon Do) & Kwan (as in, school or system eg. Ji Do Kwan). Is there a pronounciation difference? If not, why?

Seriously, is there a pronounciation difference?

Thanks.

 

[shesulsa]

I believe "kwan" is relating to a group, family or line. "Kwon" ... hm ... doesn't Tae Kwon Do mean "Way of the hand and foot?"

 

[exile]

I don't know Korean, but I can check with some of our students, who do, natively. The difference, whether or not it has a phonological dimension, is virtually guaranteed to be reflected in the writing system. The words may be homonyms (like too and [/I]two or earnest and Ernest in English). But just as in those cases, the overlap in pronunciation (if that's the case) is sheer coincidence, of a kind that you should expect, considering the restrictions on syllable structure in any given language—there are only so many combinations of sound-types which are `legal' for syllable formation in any languages, and most languages use a fairly restricted set of possible speech sounds, so there will be a lot of one-syllable homonyms. Two syllables, far far fewer. Three syllables, extremely rare, and so on. The kwan/kwon distinction is just another example...

 

[howard]

Why, what, how, etc is the difference in Kwon (meaning, "fist" as in Tae Kwon Do) & Kwan (as in, school or system eg. Ji Do Kwan). Is there a pronounciation difference? If not, why?

Seriously, is there a pronounciation difference?

Yes, there is.

kwon (&#44428 is usually translated as "fist". The vowel sound is similar to the dipthong sound at the beginning of the English word walrus. Think of the sound of "aw" in English.

kwan (&#44288 basically means "school" or "style" in a martial arts context, but can have a broader meaning. For example, it can mean "buliding" in many contexts. The vowel sound in this word is identical to the sound of the letter a in the English word father.

Hope this helps...

 

[matt.m]

Yes, there is.

kwon (&#44428 is usually translated as "fist". The vowel sound is similar to the dipthong sound at the beginning of the English word walrus. Think of the sound of "aw" in English.

kwan (&#44288 basically means "school" or "style" in a martial arts context, but can have a broader meaning. For example, it can mean "buliding" in many contexts. The vowel sound in this word is identical to the sound of the letter a in the English word father.

Hope this helps...

Thank you, sometimes people have a question and dont bother asking. This answered one that I had.

 

[Last Fearner]

Iceman,

Howard is exactly right. Most people (Non-Asians that I have encountered in Taekwondo) mispronounce these two quite often. Just for fun, I'll add my lengthy explanation for those who have time to read a lot.

Anyhow, I am sure you understand the difference in meanings for these words, but you were looking for the slight distinction in pronunciation between the two. As Howard said, the vowels are different. In addition to that, note the structure which the Korean Hangul uses to form the "w" that goes with each of these vowels.

"WA" and "WO"

Since the Korean alphabet does not have a separate letter for the "w," they use two vowels in combination to achieve the same (or similar) result.

In "Kwan," the "a" vowel is written as a vertical line with the short stroke to the right:
ㅏ
This is "a" vowel is always pronounced as "ah," like in "father."
However, in order to create the "wa" sound you might hear in "water," the Hangul combines the long "o" sound as in the English word "no"

It is a horizontal vowel with the short stroke up, and is written like this:
ㅗ

The beginning "K" of "Kwan" looks like this:
ㄱ
(Imagine this is a picture of your tongue bending to touch the back of the roof of your mouth near the throat to make the "k" or "g" sounds).

The ending "n" of "Kwan looks like this:
ㄴ
(Imagine this is the tip of your tongue curving up to press on the roof of your mouth near your teeth to create the "n" sound).

In order to write the word "Kwan" you put these four symbols together, and read it from left to right - top to bottom. In this case, the two vowels are blended together to form the "oh - ah" sound, or "wa."

ㄱ
ㅗㅏ or 관
ㄴ

This might sound similar to saying in English "Go on!" When blended, it becomes "Gwahn" or "Kwan."

For the word "Kwon," this can be confusing because for a long time now, people have translated the vertical Hangul vowel of "ㅓ" by using the English letter "o." Actually, the "o" should only be used to identify the long "o" sound like in the word "no." This is written with this horizontal line ㅗ .

In order to translate the vertical vowel "ㅓ" from Hangul to English, we can use a couple of choices. For one, like Howard stated, it can be pronounced like an "aw" sound. Another option is to pronounce it like the short "u" sound as in "up." I always pronounce the word "Kwon" from "Tae kwon do" like saying the number one with a "k" in front of it.

First, you have the letter "k": ㄱ

Then you blend the "ew" sound from the long "u" like in "June" with the "uh" sound like in "up."

ㅜㅏ
"ew - uh" is blended to become "wuh" or "weo" or even "waw."

The ending "n" is placed at the bottom: ㄴ


ㄱ
ㅜㅏ or 권
ㄴ


Therefore:


관 = Ko ah n = Kwan
("Family" - to be related or affiliated with)


권 = Kew uh n = Kwon
(Strike with the hand or "Fist")


Last Fearner (<< pronunciation uncertain)

 

[terryl965]

As always Last Fearner you have out did yourself such a wonderful post

 

[howard]

LF, very nice post. Excellent explanation of the combinations of vowels used to form the sounds in these two Korean syllables.

You might find this interesting...

In order to translate the vertical vowel "&#12627;" from Hangul to English, we can use a couple of choices. For one, like Howard stated, it can be pronounced like an "aw" sound. Another option is to pronounce it like the short "u" sound as in "up."

There seem to be different pronunciations of the vowel &#12627; in different parts of Korea. I noticed that in Seoul, on tv, etc., it's more like the "aw" sound in English, whereas in the Daegu area it's definitely much closer to the vowel sound in the word up. I just happen to remember this because when we are training in Daegu and we hear the Koreans pronounce the name of our kwan (Jungkikwan - &#51221; &#44032; &#44428 in Hangul, or any other syllable with that vowel, they pronounce the vowel in "jung" like the u in "up".

 

[Last Fearner]

Thank you very much Master Stoker. I have enjoyed studying the Korean Language, but I have much more to go. When I have taught classes on this at our summer camps, some of the native born Koreans have watched and said they were astounded at the way I understood the fine workings and how I presented the material. They said that even they learned some things. Always nice to get compliments like that.

LF, very nice post. Excellent explanation of the combinations of vowels used to form the sounds in these two Korean syllables.

Thanks to you too Howard. I have also noticed the different dialect variations in various regions of Korea. When I was there in 1996-97, we also flew from Seoul down to Cheju Island (mega-tourist magnet). The Koreans that I was with attempted to translate what the local villagers were saying about their town's history, but had difficulty understanding the Cheju dialect. It's all very interesting, and fun to learn!

...the Koreans pronounce the name of our kwan (Jungkikwan - &#51221; &#44032; &#44428 in Hangul...

I noticed that you wrote the name of your kwan as "Jung Ki Kwan," yet you spelled it in Korean Hangul as "Jung Ka Kwon." Did you copy the Hangul Translation from a website for you school, or was it a error in which hangul letters you chose?

In your example, &#44032; would be "ka" which is pronounced "kah" rather than "Ki"

and the &#44428; that you used is like the example I gave in my earlier post which is for the "k" + "ew" + "uh" + "n" = "Kwon," which usually means "fist."

If you want write "Jungkikwan" in hangul, it should look like this:

&#51221;&#44592;&#44288;

&#51221;= "Jung" or "Jeong"
&#44592;= "Ki" or "Gi"
&#44288;= "Kwan"

What do you think? Is this correct, or did I miss something in your translation?
Let me know if this makes sense to you.

Last Fearner

 

[howard]

I noticed that you wrote the name of your kwan as "Jung Ki Kwan," yet you spelled it in Korean Hangul as "Jung Ka Kwon." Did you copy the Hangul Translation from a website for you school, or was it a error in which hangul letters you chose?

Hi,

It is an outright error. I typed it in from my keyboard, but was just careless. I must have been half asleep. ;~)

Good catch... thanks for the correction.

If you want write "Jungkikwan" in hangul, it should look like this:

&#51221;&#44592;&#44288;


What do you think? Is this correct, or did I miss something in your translation?
Let me know if this makes sense to you.

You are absolutely correct. Thanks again.

If you're interested, check out our website (http://jungkikwan.com), which has both Korean and English sections. It is a great source of information about Choi Yong Sul, Hapkido and the sword art we practice (Kuhapdo).

 

[IcemanSK]

Iceman,

Howard is exactly right. Most people (Non-Asians that I have encountered in Taekwondo) mispronounce these two quite often. Just for fun, I'll add my lengthy explanation for those who have time to read a lot.

Anyhow, I am sure you understand the difference in meanings for these words, but you were looking for the slight distinction in pronunciation between the two. As Howard said, the vowels are different. In addition to that, note the structure which the Korean Hangul uses to form the "w" that goes with each of these vowels.

"WA" and "WO"

Since the Korean alphabet does not have a separate letter for the "w," they use two vowels in combination to achieve the same (or similar) result.

In "Kwan," the "a" vowel is written as a vertical line with the short stroke to the right:
&#12623;
This is "a" vowel is always pronounced as "ah," like in "father."
However, in order to create the "wa" sound you might hear in "water," the Hangul combines the long "o" sound as in the English word "no"

It is a horizontal vowel with the short stroke up, and is written like this:
&#12631;

The beginning "K" of "Kwan" looks like this:
&#12593;
(Imagine this is a picture of your tongue bending to touch the back of the roof of your mouth near the throat to make the "k" or "g" sounds).

The ending "n" of "Kwan looks like this:
&#12596;
(Imagine this is the tip of your tongue curving up to press on the roof of your mouth near your teeth to create the "n" sound).

In order to write the word "Kwan" you put these four symbols together, and read it from left to right - top to bottom. In this case, the two vowels are blended together to form the "oh - ah" sound, or "wa."

&#12593;
&#12631;&#12623; or &#44288;
&#12596;

This might sound similar to saying in English "Go on!" When blended, it becomes "Gwahn" or "Kwan."

For the word "Kwon," this can be confusing because for a long time now, people have translated the vertical Hangul vowel of "&#12627;" by using the English letter "o." Actually, the "o" should only be used to identify the long "o" sound like in the word "no." This is written with this horizontal line &#12631; .

In order to translate the vertical vowel "&#12627;" from Hangul to English, we can use a couple of choices. For one, like Howard stated, it can be pronounced like an "aw" sound. Another option is to pronounce it like the short "u" sound as in "up." I always pronounce the word "Kwon" from "Tae kwon do" like saying the number one with a "k" in front of it.

First, you have the letter "k": &#12593;

Then you blend the "ew" sound from the long "u" like in "June" with the "uh" sound like in "up."

&#12636;&#12623;
"ew - uh" is blended to become "wuh" or "weo" or even "waw."

The ending "n" is placed at the bottom: &#12596;


&#12593;
&#12636;&#12623; or &#44428;
&#12596;


Therefore:


&#44288; = Ko ah n = Kwan
("Family" - to be related or affiliated with)


&#44428; = Kew uh n = Kwon
(Strike with the hand or "Fist")


Last Fearner (<< pronunciation uncertain)

Thank you very much, sir! I've wondered about this for a number of years. It's just that I think of it at 2:30 am.

 

[IcemanSK]

Yes, there is.

kwon (&#44428 is usually translated as "fist". The vowel sound is similar to the dipthong sound at the beginning of the English word walrus. Think of the sound of "aw" in English.

kwan (&#44288 basically means "school" or "style" in a martial arts context, but can have a broader meaning. For example, it can mean "buliding" in many contexts. The vowel sound in this word is identical to the sound of the letter a in the English word father.

Hope this helps...

Thank you for your assistance, sir.

 

[Dave Leverich]

*takes notes*

Thanks again CME!
I've been studying the Pimsleur system, they break things down somewhat, but I love to get things from all angles.

 

[howard]

Thank you for your assistance, sir.

You're quite welcome. :asian:

Actually, I'd say Last Fearner is our go-to guy for questions about Hangul. He knows way more about it than I do. I taught myself the alpabet, so I can read Hangul, but I don't know what most of it means. I just know a few MA terms.

btw, LF, if you're out there... do you know if there is a single Korean equivalent for the Japanese term kuzushi? (the classic unbalancing of the attacker that is pervasive in Aikijujtusu and Hapkido)? I have not yet been able to find one. I tried the last time I was in Daegu, but to no avail.

 

[Chizikunbo]

Yes, there is.

kwon (&#44428 is usually translated as "fist". The vowel sound is similar to the dipthong sound at the beginning of the English word walrus. Think of the sound of "aw" in English.

kwan (&#44288 basically means "school" or "style" in a martial arts context, but can have a broader meaning. For example, it can mean "buliding" in many contexts. The vowel sound in this word is identical to the sound of the letter a in the English word father.

Hope this helps...

Excellent Post, thats how I learned it as well.
Most Kwans (schools) practice their own style (ryu)...The term is not used with much consistency from one art to another, for instance in Tang Soo Do Kwan refers to the style, lineage, and organization...as in Mi Guk Kwan, or Moo Duk Kwan, whereas in Tae Kwon Do a Kwan is often an individual school, under a larger organizations banner such as WTF, or ITF etc. Then getting into the term Kwan Jang Nim is about as complicated LOL...
--josh