Knife Defense Clip

[MJS]

This clip was posted in the Kenpo section, but I thought I'd post it here to get some feedback from those that don't read that section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY_6nQT89vQ&mode=related&search

I thought we could discuss the methods of defense that the people are using, as well as the nature of the attack with the knife.

Mike

 

[jenngibbs2000]

HI -- watched the clip when you posted it in the Kempo/Kenpo section. The most troubling part is that the attackee never makes an attempt to control the knife hand. He appears to be consumed with grappling rather than controlling the wrist and is therefore "stabbed" many, many times before the action stops. The best part is that after failing miserably to protect himself the "instructor" praises him...hilarious!

jennifer

 

[MJS]

HI -- watched the clip when you posted it in the Kempo/Kenpo section. The most troubling part is that the attackee never makes an attempt to control the knife hand. He appears to be consumed with grappling rather than controlling the wrist and is therefore "stabbed" many, many times before the action stops. The best part is that after failing miserably to protect himself the "instructor" praises him...hilarious!

jennifer

Hey Jen,

Yes, your thoughts are spot on with what others have said regarding the control of the weapon hand. There are a few different areas on the clip, where the defender is doing more of a bearhug on the attacker, getting stabbed a number of times. I realize that they're trying to gear the training to be more 'alive' but at the same time, although they're using a training blade, it seems that they're not too concerned with the hits that are getting in.

Mike

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

HI -- watched the clip when you posted it in the Kempo/Kenpo section. The most troubling part is that the attackee never makes an attempt to control the knife hand. He appears to be consumed with grappling rather than controlling the wrist and is therefore "stabbed" many, many times before the action stops. The best part is that after failing miserably to protect himself the "instructor" praises him...hilarious!

jennifer

Wow. Can I say "Deja Vu" Mike S.? LOL

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This video illustrates the important point of if you cannot immediately get away or create space to access a tool then you need to control that knife hand to minimize your risk of being stabbed repeatedly like the gentleman in the video were.

 

[Mcura]

I couldn't help but notice that the stabbing was inelegant, repetitive, none-artistic, and brutal. In other words, it's not what is normally rehearsed in most martial-arts classes. I found it sobering.

While it's true that the participants didn't immediately control the knife hand (and got perforated) at least they were doing *something*. Now they have some idea of what to expect, and so will anyone viewing that clip, if an actual knife encounter takes place.

My immediate reaction was this was an example of what not to do. However, I spoke too soon. There are other videos that are posted by this person/club. I'll have to view them all before I make any decision.

That'll teach me to review all the facts before I shoot off my big mouth.

 

[arnisador]

While it's true that the participants didn't immediately control the knife hand (and got perforated) at least they were doing *something*.

This is a good point. Controlling is great...but it ain't always easy. At least they were moving. There are many non-martial artists who have survived knifings, albeit with serious wounds, because they didn't stop fighting. It's no guarantee, of course, but it does help.

 

[trueaspirer]

It seemed the the attacker wasn't really trying.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Some sobering reality, but somewhat perplexing on the training. The one on one encounters, the defender was intent on trying to stop the knife arm, which is understandable, but he did not realize that the attacker was giving him his other side. Notice the position of the attacker.......He leads with his left side and angles his body to shield the knife. This allows the defender to attack that side of the body and perhaps stop the attack, at least in a much more advantagous position than what he was doing. As for the two person attack, the defender made no attempt, that I could see, to put the unarmed attacker between him and the knife welding attacker. The only sure fired thing I saw was when the defender ran........My personal first choice. Just a couple of observations, that I understand may fall into a different training curriculum then the one I studied. Either way, it showed that defending against a knife is not as easy as some folks would like us to believe.

 

[pstarr]

It seemed to me that after he was pushed, the victim immediately jumped back towards the aggressor and exposed himself to more serious attack. Moreover, the victim came in with grappling maneuvers.

I would think it would be better to back off after the initial push, thereby creating a defense perimeter before you (the victim) determines the true nature of the attack.

Additionally, most scumbags who carry knives pull them and flash them visibly to scare the victim. This fellow just went straight to work which is, I feel, very unlikely. I know because I've been there, done that.

You're right; it's a good example of what not to do...

 

[MJS]

Wow. Can I say "Deja Vu" Mike S.? LOL

LOL, I was thinking the same exact thing!

 

[MJS]

Great replies here!

I'd be interested to hear how everyone trains this type of attack. Many of the 'attacks' that we saw in the clip, are similar to the shankings that are typical in a prison/jail type setting.

IMO, and as others have said on the Kenpo portion of this, is to pretty much attack the attack, while counter attacking with strikes of our own.

Thoughts?

 

[KenpoTex]

Great replies here!

I'd be interested to hear how everyone trains this type of attack. Many of the 'attacks' that we saw in the clip, are similar to the shankings that are typical in a prison/jail type setting.

IMO, and as others have said on the Kenpo portion of this, is to pretty much attack the attack, while counter attacking with strikes of our own.

Thoughts?

As far as defending against this type of attack (which, IMO is more realistic than the attacks for which many MA techniques are geared) I like the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel. It is specifically designed to deal with the rapid-fire "shanking" attacks like the ones in the video.

 

[samurai69]

As far as defending against this type of attack (which, IMO is more realistic than the attacks for which many MA techniques are geared) I like the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel. It is specifically designed to deal with the rapid-fire "shanking" attacks like the ones in the video.

Well could you elaborate on the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel

 

[arnisador]

Well could you elaborate on the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel

Yes, I'm curious too!

 

[Flatlander]

Just a comment: I agree that there should have been more attempt to control the weapon hand, but in all honesty, the quality of the video on my computer was such that is was very difficult to get a good look at the intricacies of what was going on. It did appear though that the attacker was scoring quite a few. At least, however, the quality of the scenario was good: outside of the dojo, on the pavement, brick walls around, etc. They threw in multiple attackers, the attacks were vicious and brutal. I think that this was, at the very minimum, a reasonable starting point for situational training.

 

[Garth Barnard]

Firstly, Clive is a good guy and really does know his stuff. He's no slouch and his training is very tough. Clive has forgotten more about SD than most people know!

The clip is a clip. It's served it's purpose by getting everyone's attention and making everyone think about how good their own training is and how you might defencd yourself from a knife attack.

Don't get too hung-up on who did what in the clip, instead, watch how easy it is to get cut and how hard it is to defend from a knife attack.

Watch and think, that's what the clip is for, in my opinion.

And remember, in a knife attack, expect to get cut and deal with the attacker with vehemence.

 

[KenpoTex]

Well could you elaborate on the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel

It's a method that, as I said, is designed to deal with the type of attack that we saw in the video-clip. The basic principles are jam the attack to immobilize the arm holding the knife, transition to a position from which you can control the arm, and beat the guy 'till he drops the knife.

There are two techniqes taught to initially immobilze the arm. The first one is to basically pin his arm against his own body. This serves to slow his motion to the point where you can get a firm grasp on his wrist. The second technique is referred to as "the dive." In this technique you basically wedge your arms in between his knife-arm and his body, and then hug his arm to your chest (think of having "underhooks" on his arm"). Once again, from here you're ready to transition to the next position. Both of these techniques depend heavily on aggression and forward drive.

The second or transitory position is referred to as the baseball-bat grip. Basically you grab his wrist with both hands and drive down, locking your arms, and putting you're weight over the knife by leaning forward. This serves to keep him from being able to continue to stab since he now has to lift all your weight in addition to fighting your strength.

The third position is the control position. The technique that is taught is referred to as the 2-on-1. It's basically an arm-bar where you're standing next to him, your right hand (for someone with the knife in his right) is still grabbing his wrist, and your left hand comes up under his arm-pit and grabs his shoulder. In this technique, your chest provides the fulcrum for the lock.
I personally prefer a slightly different position. I use the arm-pit trap (also an arm-bar technique) where you have his upper arm trapped under your arm. I like this position because it makes it easier to control his position. By simply squatting down a little, you can drive him right into the floor.


So, that's the best description I can give. It's a little hard to envision some of this because it's such an agressive, dynamic technique. However, after training it at full speed/full contact with a partner, I've become very confident that it will be effective while minimizing the injuries. I highly recommend this method.

Here's a link to the site you y'all can check out the videos
http://centerlinegym.com/gym_gear.htm

 

[MJS]

As far as defending against this type of attack (which, IMO is more realistic than the attacks for which many MA techniques are geared) I like the Red Zone system as developed by Jerry Wetzel. It is specifically designed to deal with the rapid-fire "shanking" attacks like the ones in the video.

Yes, you and I have talked about those tapes as well as Karl Tanswell, on here before. I'm certainly not disputing the effectiveness of the method, just saying that it seemed to me anyways, that there were a few times in the clip in which the defender seemed more occupied with grappling, than gaining control of the weapon arm and counterstriking.

 

[KenpoTex]

Yes, you and I have talked about those tapes as well as Karl Tanswell, on here before. I'm certainly not disputing the effectiveness of the method, just saying that it seemed to me anyways, that there were a few times in the clip in which the defender seemed more occupied with grappling, than gaining control of the weapon arm and counterstriking.

I agree