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TheRustyOne
Guest
I cannot, for the life of me, remember the kicks on each of the walls. Can anyone help me?
michaeledward
Grandmaster
There are only a couple of tricks I have learned to memorize the set .. Leg 3 is the Leg 2 in reverse, with the other foot .... Leg 1 and Leg 4 start with Front Kick ... Leg 1 and Leg 2 start with a different kick. So, with that being said ... here is what I recall of the set.
Training Horse
Step Back to Left Neutral
Front Ball (R)
Front X-Over Side (R)
Shuffle-up Round House (R)
Spinning Back (L)
Cover to Left Neutral
Front Side (R)
Shuffle-up Front Ball (R)
Shuffle-up Roundhouse (R)
Shuffle-up Back (R)
Cover to Right Neutral
Spinning Back (L)
Shuffle-up Roundhouse (L)
Shuffle-up Front Ball (L)
Shuffle-up Side (L)
Cover to Left Neutral
Step-thru Front Ball (R)
Step-thru Roundhouse (L)
Spinning Back (R)
Step-thru Side (L)
An additional thought : Front and Back kicks should be targeted to the mid section, roundhouse kicks should aim high, side kicks should aim low.
Looking forward to others' insights. - Mike
Training Horse
Step Back to Left Neutral
Front Ball (R)
Front X-Over Side (R)
Shuffle-up Round House (R)
Spinning Back (L)
Cover to Left Neutral
Front Side (R)
Shuffle-up Front Ball (R)
Shuffle-up Roundhouse (R)
Shuffle-up Back (R)
Cover to Right Neutral
Spinning Back (L)
Shuffle-up Roundhouse (L)
Shuffle-up Front Ball (L)
Shuffle-up Side (L)
Cover to Left Neutral
Step-thru Front Ball (R)
Step-thru Roundhouse (L)
Spinning Back (R)
Step-thru Side (L)
An additional thought : Front and Back kicks should be targeted to the mid section, roundhouse kicks should aim high, side kicks should aim low.
Looking forward to others' insights. - Mike
OP
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TheRustyOne
Guest
Thank you very much!
But as for the kicks, I always try to aim for the mid-section. It's just comfortable for me.
But as for the kicks, I always try to aim for the mid-section. It's just comfortable for me.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
I'd go along with Tess...vary the heights of the kicks (nothing like those roundhouses to the backs of the ankle/shin, knee, thigh).
Then there are some of the neat thingies mentioned in "Inf. Insights..." think about turning the corners/sidestepping; run the Set without doing any kicks, as a stance/leg buckler...
I can also offer one way to burn the kicks in there...do the whole thing very slowly, dropping the heights of the kicks and holding each kick out there, while you balance, for at least a five count...good days, I can sorta manage a ten count...but I guarantee that you'll a) learn a lot about good baalance in kicking, b) sear the kicks right straight into your CNS...
Then there are some of the neat thingies mentioned in "Inf. Insights..." think about turning the corners/sidestepping; run the Set without doing any kicks, as a stance/leg buckler...
I can also offer one way to burn the kicks in there...do the whole thing very slowly, dropping the heights of the kicks and holding each kick out there, while you balance, for at least a five count...good days, I can sorta manage a ten count...but I guarantee that you'll a) learn a lot about good baalance in kicking, b) sear the kicks right straight into your CNS...
Check this out, it is something put together for my students.
http://jskenpo.com/self_defense_techniques.html
http://jskenpo.com/self_defense_techniques.html
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Ohhhh Rusty One....... you must realize that when you go on a forum of this sort.... you may be asking advice which may have several differing points of view. There have been several different "versions" of much (or all) of the material that is available to the Kenpo World.
What you need to consider is, the exact information that you actually "need" is the exact version that "your personal studio" is teaching and not one of the many potential versions out there.
This will lead to less confussion for you. My advice to you is to first, take better notes in class, and second, ask your instructor.
The net is and extremely useful tool but can also become the biggest thorn you can imagine.:rofl:
As to "Fancy Pants Billings" great job on that chart dude...... I'm gonna copy that and use it everywhere!! (really neat and with the updated sequence of kicks)
:asian:
... thanks to you.
Gee, I'm a poet n didn't know it.
For those that did not know the history, the sequence of kicks was re-arranged circa 1986(?) or so, due to some dragon's keen analytical mind. And Mr. Parker saying something to the effect of, "gee Dennis you are right, that makes it more logical", then a new version of kicking set was disseminated. Of course I don't know the exact quote, but we have the GoldenOne to thank for the latest version of kicking set, as approved by Mr. Parker.
Oss
Gee, I'm a poet n didn't know it.
For those that did not know the history, the sequence of kicks was re-arranged circa 1986(?) or so, due to some dragon's keen analytical mind. And Mr. Parker saying something to the effect of, "gee Dennis you are right, that makes it more logical", then a new version of kicking set was disseminated. Of course I don't know the exact quote, but we have the GoldenOne to thank for the latest version of kicking set, as approved by Mr. Parker.
Oss
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rmcrobertson
Guest
I see that the kicks on the last side got rearranged--may I ask why?
Robert,
My understanding was that the 1st three sides each started with a different kick, until you got to the 4th side, it was a repeat. So they changed it so that each side starts with a different kick.
It is also a nice flow, not that the old way did not flow also, but roundhouse to spin rear works nicely.
Now a general comment, not to you Robert, but in answer to other questions or observations regarding Kicking Set 1.
Other characteristics:
1st Side - different maneuver for each kick (varies range)
2nd Side - All right leg kicks (pattern step-through, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle)
3rd Side - All left leg kicks ... and the order of kicks is the exact opposite of the 2nd side; (so if you learn one, you have learned the other and the pattern is step-through [in this case a spin], shuffle, shuffle, shuffle)
4th Side, all step-throughs ... or "chasing the opponent across the room kicking him as he runs."
I also require waist high kicks.
Consistant height stances.
and a timing break following the kick, as v. after the maneuver.
step through, pause, kick, pause, shuffle, pause, kick, pause, etc.
... is not an acceptable timing pattern for my students. I try to stress this as a fighting set in which you learn about RANGE.
So step-through front snapping ball, pause, left front cross-over right knife-edge, pause, shuffle roundhouse kick, pause ....etc., would be what I stress to my students.
Balance, power, focus, etc. are also stressed, but for fighting I want them thinking depth of attack and what maneuver is appropriate. Just an individual choice as Mr. Conatser pointed out. TAKE NOTES is great advice.
-MB
My understanding was that the 1st three sides each started with a different kick, until you got to the 4th side, it was a repeat. So they changed it so that each side starts with a different kick.
It is also a nice flow, not that the old way did not flow also, but roundhouse to spin rear works nicely.
Now a general comment, not to you Robert, but in answer to other questions or observations regarding Kicking Set 1.
Other characteristics:
1st Side - different maneuver for each kick (varies range)
2nd Side - All right leg kicks (pattern step-through, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle)
3rd Side - All left leg kicks ... and the order of kicks is the exact opposite of the 2nd side; (so if you learn one, you have learned the other and the pattern is step-through [in this case a spin], shuffle, shuffle, shuffle)
4th Side, all step-throughs ... or "chasing the opponent across the room kicking him as he runs."
I also require waist high kicks.
Consistant height stances.
and a timing break following the kick, as v. after the maneuver.
step through, pause, kick, pause, shuffle, pause, kick, pause, etc.
... is not an acceptable timing pattern for my students. I try to stress this as a fighting set in which you learn about RANGE.
So step-through front snapping ball, pause, left front cross-over right knife-edge, pause, shuffle roundhouse kick, pause ....etc., would be what I stress to my students.
Balance, power, focus, etc. are also stressed, but for fighting I want them thinking depth of attack and what maneuver is appropriate. Just an individual choice as Mr. Conatser pointed out. TAKE NOTES is great advice.
-MB
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Well...um...isn't there already a roundhouse-to-spinning back combination in the set's first side? I realize that it's out of a drag-up rather than a step-through, but...if we're going to avoid repetition...
As for the timing pattern, well sure. That's one--I repeat, one--way to see, and teach the set. Another way--not the only way, but a way--to see and teach the set involves drag up, chamber, kick, balance, rechamber...
The sets, as you already know, have multiple applications. Which means there are at least several ways to teach them, none of these exclusive of the others...
As for the timing pattern, well sure. That's one--I repeat, one--way to see, and teach the set. Another way--not the only way, but a way--to see and teach the set involves drag up, chamber, kick, balance, rechamber...
The sets, as you already know, have multiple applications. Which means there are at least several ways to teach them, none of these exclusive of the others...
1st side = Front kick
2nd side = Side kick
3rd side = Spin back kick
4th side = (drum roll) Roundhouse kick:asian:
2nd side = Side kick
3rd side = Spin back kick
4th side = (drum roll) Roundhouse kick:asian:
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Um...ah...yeah...got that...but why's it important that there not be a repeat at the outset of a side, but later is OK? I wonder, too, if the covers have anything to do with the logic behind the kicks...just askin'.
But that was how Mr. Parker approved it and what we do. Did Mr. Tatum keep Kicking Set. The change was made after the break up probably?
-MB
-MB
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Well, I don't actually know.
However, Michael, I wonder about the reasons for changing the fourth-side first kick to a roundhouse...
Here's my argument, especially after getting a look at some of the hand-patterns from Wed. night advanced class...particularly in view of the fact that the question of teaching sparring/fighting was mentioned in regard to the set...
If you change that last side, then a) you've still got a repetition from the first side, of the round/spinning back combo; b) this means that unlike the other sides, there's no creation of a line that can be reinforced/abruptly varied, and on the other three sides opening with a straight-line kick; c) you've wiped out the transition from neutral bow facing 9 to horse stance facing 12 that previously ended the set.
Thanks.
However, Michael, I wonder about the reasons for changing the fourth-side first kick to a roundhouse...
Here's my argument, especially after getting a look at some of the hand-patterns from Wed. night advanced class...particularly in view of the fact that the question of teaching sparring/fighting was mentioned in regard to the set...
If you change that last side, then a) you've still got a repetition from the first side, of the round/spinning back combo; b) this means that unlike the other sides, there's no creation of a line that can be reinforced/abruptly varied, and on the other three sides opening with a straight-line kick; c) you've wiped out the transition from neutral bow facing 9 to horse stance facing 12 that previously ended the set.
Thanks.
I can't give a diffinitive answer obviously, since I was not part of the process at that time.
What occurs to me is that the kick on the 1st side, or wall, is a shuffle going to a spin. This allows the beginning student time to learn the spinning back kick and learn balance, reverse cats, arms in, eyes around, etc. without the additional momentum of the one performed on the 4th side, or wall. The one on the 4th side is more difficult to control as the beginner tends to over-rotate early and go to the spinning side kick. We have already practiced the spinning back kick on the 1st and 3rd sides (walls), so the progression was from a shuffle, then on the third side a spin coming directly from the neutral bow, now on the 4th side it is thrown following another step-through maneuver/kick.
I do practice balance, chambering (to some extent), focus, retracting the kicking leg, consistant height of kick and body, etc., at beginning levels. It varies as the student moves up in rank and you no longer want the set looking like a Orange Belt doing an Orange Belt set ... very well, but rather as a Black Belt doing the set as a Black Belt, not just an extremely proficient and fast Orange Belt. But that is for another thread having to do with Belt Progression.
It is so much up to the individual instructors as to what they are teaching at the time. It is not all "What", but "How" the student executes the set. You could watch one of my students, as I could watch one of yours, and regardless of what kick was done, I would feel very comfortable with your ability as to tell whether he executed the required movement well.
We do perform the set Right and Left, otherwise we would not practice a right spinning back kick at all. This is one it makes sense to do right and left ... of course I have my guys do all the #1 sets on both sides.
Respectfully,
-MB
What occurs to me is that the kick on the 1st side, or wall, is a shuffle going to a spin. This allows the beginning student time to learn the spinning back kick and learn balance, reverse cats, arms in, eyes around, etc. without the additional momentum of the one performed on the 4th side, or wall. The one on the 4th side is more difficult to control as the beginner tends to over-rotate early and go to the spinning side kick. We have already practiced the spinning back kick on the 1st and 3rd sides (walls), so the progression was from a shuffle, then on the third side a spin coming directly from the neutral bow, now on the 4th side it is thrown following another step-through maneuver/kick.
I do practice balance, chambering (to some extent), focus, retracting the kicking leg, consistant height of kick and body, etc., at beginning levels. It varies as the student moves up in rank and you no longer want the set looking like a Orange Belt doing an Orange Belt set ... very well, but rather as a Black Belt doing the set as a Black Belt, not just an extremely proficient and fast Orange Belt. But that is for another thread having to do with Belt Progression.
It is so much up to the individual instructors as to what they are teaching at the time. It is not all "What", but "How" the student executes the set. You could watch one of my students, as I could watch one of yours, and regardless of what kick was done, I would feel very comfortable with your ability as to tell whether he executed the required movement well.
We do perform the set Right and Left, otherwise we would not practice a right spinning back kick at all. This is one it makes sense to do right and left ... of course I have my guys do all the #1 sets on both sides.
Respectfully,
-MB
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Well, going in reverse order:
I still don't see the need for all this "right," and "left," sideness. It's an argument we've had before, which has to do with a) symmetry, b) the best way to move towards it.
I also think you've changed the terms of the discussion. Initially, I argued for teaching the set in terms of balance and form in kicking, among other things; your response indicated that you focused on sparring. So I took up the set in terms of sparring...and things shifted back to baalance and form in kicking...
My main proposition has to do with line reinforcement, however. How 'bout that?
I still don't see the need for all this "right," and "left," sideness. It's an argument we've had before, which has to do with a) symmetry, b) the best way to move towards it.
I also think you've changed the terms of the discussion. Initially, I argued for teaching the set in terms of balance and form in kicking, among other things; your response indicated that you focused on sparring. So I took up the set in terms of sparring...and things shifted back to baalance and form in kicking...
My main proposition has to do with line reinforcement, however. How 'bout that?
I was agreeing with your original proposition regarding what the set teaches and how you teach it. As I do the same thing. I think I got off track when I was addressing what I focus on as soon as my students have the pattern down. They always have to work on the basics, which you stress when teaching (at least I assume given your earlier post.)
I am not teaching the set in a sparring context, rather fighting ranges Robert. This can apply to techniques they already know as well as ones they are to learn. Most of my material is in the context of street-style fighting, not point sparring. Maybe you meant all types of sparring, point, continuous, street, etc. If so, I just wanted to clarify my position.
The right and left is a little different in this set since the kicks do not repeat right and left sides. My observation is that people do tend to kick more bilaterally than they execute techniques. They are not nearly as right footed (if there is any such phrase) as they are right handed. The shuffle kicks are adaquately covered in Kicking Set One, as are the step throughs in Side 4, and step throughs are the 1st kick on every side. But there is only one cross-over and the spin kicks are predominantly with the left leg ... not the leg most of my students throw the kick with (probably due to most opponent's having the left foot forward, the targets that open are more accessable generally, with a right spinning back).
Line Reinforcement - please explain. I think I know what you mean in terms of linear progression, but am not certain if we are talking the same Kenpoese here.
Thanks for the dialogue,
-MB
I am not teaching the set in a sparring context, rather fighting ranges Robert. This can apply to techniques they already know as well as ones they are to learn. Most of my material is in the context of street-style fighting, not point sparring. Maybe you meant all types of sparring, point, continuous, street, etc. If so, I just wanted to clarify my position.
The right and left is a little different in this set since the kicks do not repeat right and left sides. My observation is that people do tend to kick more bilaterally than they execute techniques. They are not nearly as right footed (if there is any such phrase) as they are right handed. The shuffle kicks are adaquately covered in Kicking Set One, as are the step throughs in Side 4, and step throughs are the 1st kick on every side. But there is only one cross-over and the spin kicks are predominantly with the left leg ... not the leg most of my students throw the kick with (probably due to most opponent's having the left foot forward, the targets that open are more accessable generally, with a right spinning back).
Line Reinforcement - please explain. I think I know what you mean in terms of linear progression, but am not certain if we are talking the same Kenpoese here.
Thanks for the dialogue,
-MB
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dcence
Guest
A couple of observations:
(1) Don't be so hard on the Rusty One for asking her question. Kicking Set (and many other cataloguing sets) embody what I don't like about such sets -- the need to memorize too dang much for the sake of memorization. I took her quesion as "Give me a key to remember the sequence", not "What is the exact sequence?"
But for those in the memorization mode, it helped me to remember that the front and knife edge kicks are always adjacent in sequence, and the roundhouse and back kicks are always paired up in the sequence. Then if you know the first kick, you know the second, and the rest falls into place.
With that said, the focus needs to be on HOW, not WHAT. Good to see some of those suggestions. Along those lines practice a single leg of the set from the ground (teaches kicks from your back, protecting yourself while kicking from the ground, rolling and kicking with many different varieties of kicks a la Encounter with Danger). Instead of the same ole' kicks, practice jump kicks, slow kicks for form, stomps, sweeps and buckles, double kicks, prefix your kicks with a hand strike that primes the momentum of the kick, etc. Don't get hung up on the rote memorization of sequences. There is more value in looking at the trees in the forest.
(2) Either variation (pre- or post- 1986) repeats the roundhouse, spinning back kick sequence in fourth leg, which is also in the 1st leg. The original version has it in the 2nd and 3rd move, and the updated version has it in the 1st and 2nd move. So I don't see the point of the Robertson/Billings debate.
(3) How many practice this in the figure eight pattern instead of the box?
(4) I don't even really care for the box pattern. I prefer to practice the sequence of four kicks back and forth across the room (side covers are already covered elsewhere). The box takes too much room.
(5) The 4th leg contains a triple rotational progression (progressive directional harmony). Think kicking tornado. Along those lines, I think the last leg should be changed again to have the last kick be a spinning knife edge kick at the end instead of a step through, for an alternating sequence all four kicks rotating in the same direction.
Who said all the spinnning kicks need to be back kicks? Try a spinning roundhouse for the surprise of your sparring partner's life.
(6) Is it just me or does anybody else think KenpoTess' picture looks like Angelina Jolie?
Derek
(1) Don't be so hard on the Rusty One for asking her question. Kicking Set (and many other cataloguing sets) embody what I don't like about such sets -- the need to memorize too dang much for the sake of memorization. I took her quesion as "Give me a key to remember the sequence", not "What is the exact sequence?"
But for those in the memorization mode, it helped me to remember that the front and knife edge kicks are always adjacent in sequence, and the roundhouse and back kicks are always paired up in the sequence. Then if you know the first kick, you know the second, and the rest falls into place.
With that said, the focus needs to be on HOW, not WHAT. Good to see some of those suggestions. Along those lines practice a single leg of the set from the ground (teaches kicks from your back, protecting yourself while kicking from the ground, rolling and kicking with many different varieties of kicks a la Encounter with Danger). Instead of the same ole' kicks, practice jump kicks, slow kicks for form, stomps, sweeps and buckles, double kicks, prefix your kicks with a hand strike that primes the momentum of the kick, etc. Don't get hung up on the rote memorization of sequences. There is more value in looking at the trees in the forest.
(2) Either variation (pre- or post- 1986) repeats the roundhouse, spinning back kick sequence in fourth leg, which is also in the 1st leg. The original version has it in the 2nd and 3rd move, and the updated version has it in the 1st and 2nd move. So I don't see the point of the Robertson/Billings debate.
(3) How many practice this in the figure eight pattern instead of the box?
(4) I don't even really care for the box pattern. I prefer to practice the sequence of four kicks back and forth across the room (side covers are already covered elsewhere). The box takes too much room.
(5) The 4th leg contains a triple rotational progression (progressive directional harmony). Think kicking tornado. Along those lines, I think the last leg should be changed again to have the last kick be a spinning knife edge kick at the end instead of a step through, for an alternating sequence all four kicks rotating in the same direction.
Who said all the spinnning kicks need to be back kicks? Try a spinning roundhouse for the surprise of your sparring partner's life.
(6) Is it just me or does anybody else think KenpoTess' picture looks like Angelina Jolie?
Derek
