Karate or ju jitsu

kuniggety

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Actually, the name "Judo" was already in use. Some representatives of the Kodokan, in the West, at least,actually were making an effort to distinguish Judo (a modern, scientific, civilized art worthy of a progressive 20th century nation like Japan) from Jujutsu (a primitive, thuggish vestige of the medieval age)*.

*(Adjectives in parentheses indicate the ideas presented by these Kodokan evangelists, not my own views.)

I'll bow to your knowledge on it but from my understanding was that the name didn't formally change to judo until 1925. Even then, it was still referred to as jiu-jutsu in Japan for awhile and the name change just never crossed the ocean/took hold in Brazil. I think it was Helio Gracie that said that he never even heard the word judo until much later.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I think it was Helio Gracie that said that he never even heard the word judo until much later.
Amusingly enough, when Judo started being widely taught in Brazil under that name, Helio put forth the idea that "Judo" was a watered-down fraud created by the Japanese for Westerners so as to as to hide the true samurai art of Jiu-Jitsu which only the Gracies had learned from Maeda.

It wasn't until later (after his brothers had died) that Helio changed the origin story so that he personally had single-handedly created BJJ by taking what Carlos had learned from Maeda and improving the techniques by adding leverage so a smaller person could overcome a larger one.

Helio Gracie was a great martial artist and salesman. Historical accuracy and humility were not his strong suits.
 

PhotonGuy

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Helio Gracie was a great martial artist and salesman. Historical accuracy and humility were not his strong suits.

As far as Helio and the Gracies in general being salesmen there were other well renowned martial artists who talked about the effectiveness of the Gracie system and I wonder if they made a deal with the Gracies to say the stuff they did. For instance Paul Vunak said that somebody with one year of training in the Gracie system could beat somebody with twenty years of training in some other system. I do believe Paul is legit and I know he is rather famous in the martial arts world but to say what he did sounds a bit far fetched and I wonder if he was paid to say it.
 

Steve

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Hi, photonguy, I would really like for you to read the article I linked to earlier. Could you please tell me what you think?
 

Buka

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As far as Helio and the Gracies in general being salesmen there were other well renowned martial artists who talked about the effectiveness of the Gracie system and I wonder if they made a deal with the Gracies to say the stuff they did. For instance Paul Vunak said that somebody with one year of training in the Gracie system could beat somebody with twenty years of training in some other system. I do believe Paul is legit and I know he is rather famous in the martial arts world but to say what he did sounds a bit far fetched and I wonder if he was paid to say it.

Vunak said that back in the early nineties - boy did I laugh. I'm talking big laugh. I had over twenty years experience at the time, hard contact stuff, competing in everything and anything at the time. I would have been insulted, but it was just too fricken' funny.

Had the opportunity to take seminars with both Vunak and Rickson in the same month in 91, two weeks apart. Couldn't afford them both, so I went with Rickson and only watched the Vunak seminar.

Vunak was correct. Boy, was he ever.

But that was then, not now.
 

PhotonGuy

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Hi, photonguy, I would really like for you to read the article I linked to earlier. Could you please tell me what you think?
Sure thing. I started reading it but its a long article so it might be awhile before I post my critique.
 

Tony Dismukes

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As far as Helio and the Gracies in general being salesmen there were other well renowned martial artists who talked about the effectiveness of the Gracie system and I wonder if they made a deal with the Gracies to say the stuff they did. For instance Paul Vunak said that somebody with one year of training in the Gracie system could beat somebody with twenty years of training in some other system. I do believe Paul is legit and I know he is rather famous in the martial arts world but to say what he did sounds a bit far fetched and I wonder if he was paid to say it.
Nah, Helio was a salesman, a master of spin, and not above stretching the truth - but paying others for testimonials wasn't his style. Vunak said what he did because he was genuinely impressed with BJJ.

That said, I'd have to see the full context for the quote. Vunak has always advocated for the idea that one art is not necessarily better than another, but that one practitioner can beat another based on attributes and on using the right art at the right time and place. If a ground fighting specialist with one year of experience can get a strictly standup specialist with twenty years of experience to the ground, then that twenty years of experience is no longer so helpful. This was even more so in the 90s when most martial artists had no clue how ground fighting worked.
 

PhotonGuy

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Vunak said that back in the early nineties - boy did I laugh. I'm talking big laugh. I had over twenty years experience at the time, hard contact stuff, competing in everything and anything at the time. I would have been insulted, but it was just too fricken' funny.

Had the opportunity to take seminars with both Vunak and Rickson in the same month in 91, two weeks apart. Couldn't afford them both, so I went with Rickson and only watched the Vunak seminar.

Vunak was correct. Boy, was he ever.

But that was then, not now.

So did you work with people who had one year of experience in the Gracie system when you went to the seminar? I have the impression you did since you came to the conclusion that Vunak was right, at least back then.
 

Buka

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So did you work with people who had one year of experience in the Gracie system when you went to the seminar? I have the impression you did since you came to the conclusion that Vunak was right, at least back then.

Looked at it from the other perspective - after a year of rolling, the difference in our game.
 

Mdwilson

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I hadn't even considered that possibility. It need not even be a "Bob's Generic" BB. Heck, if I took my hard-earned NGA BB and wore it while teaching BJJ (assuming I picked up the Blue you mentioned), that would be a lie. I know a guy who teaches both NGA (something-degree BB) and BJJ (currently Brown, I think). He changes belts between classes.

Side note: I love watching him move in his NGA techniques - a clear influence of some of the "slipping" movement used in BJJ.


NGA?? What style is this?
 

Gerry Seymour

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Thanx, I learned something new .
It's a cousin-art to the Aikido founded by Ueshiba. Both are primarily derivatives of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. NGA is self-defense focused (goshin translates to "self-defense"), and we tend to be more direct, less pure-aiki, and more compact. (The exception to that difference would be Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido, a branch off Ueshiba's art. They are quite like us.)
 

PhotonGuy

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Nah, Helio was a salesman, a master of spin, and not above stretching the truth - but paying others for testimonials wasn't his style. Vunak said what he did because he was genuinely impressed with BJJ.

That said, I'd have to see the full context for the quote. Vunak has always advocated for the idea that one art is not necessarily better than another, but that one practitioner can beat another based on attributes and on using the right art at the right time and place. If a ground fighting specialist with one year of experience can get a strictly standup specialist with twenty years of experience to the ground, then that twenty years of experience is no longer so helpful. This was even more so in the 90s when most martial artists had no clue how ground fighting worked.

I would have to dig up one of my old MA magazines to say the exact context of what Vunak said but from what I remember in the printed commercials for Gracie videos and paraphernalia there would be a quote by Vunak where he said something along the lines of how somebody with twenty years experience in a different martial art could be beaten by somebody with one year of experience in the Gracie system and that's why he became a student of Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I would have to dig up one of my old MA magazines to say the exact context of what Vunak said but from what I remember in the printed commercials for Gracie videos and paraphernalia there would be a quote by Vunak where he said something along the lines of how somebody with twenty years experience in a different martial art could be beaten by somebody with one year of experience in the Gracie system and that's why he became a student of Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
Yeah, in that case I suspect Vunak's original quote was longer and more nuanced but Rorion Gracie pulled out just the lines that sounded best for advertising.
 

Mdwilson

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It's a cousin-art to the Aikido founded by Ueshiba. Both are primarily derivatives of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. NGA is self-defense focused (goshin translates to "self-defense"), and we tend to be more direct, less pure-aiki, and more compact. (The exception to that difference would be Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido, a branch off Ueshiba's art. They are quite like us.)

Very interesting . I had never heard of it before. I thank you for the info. I will have to Google fu it to learn more.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Is it effective. You know.... on the street?
Yes. LEOs have used it in their work, and I know several people who have used it for self-defense. As with most arts, it depends how it's trained and the person using it.
 

Steve

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Yes. LEOs have used it in their work, and I know several people who have used it for self-defense. As with most arts, it depends how it's trained and the person using it.
Sorry. I was speaking tongue in cheek. Trying to be dramatic. :)
 
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